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Multiple item changes

Creator: NicknameMy
June 4, 2012 9:00am
14 posts page 1 of 2 Forums » Theory Crafting & Ideation » Multiple item changes
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NicknameMy » June 4, 2012 9:00am | Report
I think, actually, some items are unbalanced if you compare them to offers. Actually, nearly no mage gets Rod of Ages and the only start item you see are Boots of Speed. Finally, dat Doran's stacking. I would want to fix that.

Archangel's Staff / Manamune
Change the passive mana stacking per spells so it is exactly like Tear of the Goddess.
The passive AD convertion on Manamune is no longer unique.
The passive AD stacking from Manamune through auto attacks is no longer unique aswell, means for every Manamune you get 1 more Mana per attack.

I think this should allow people to buy Archangel's Staff or Manamune earlier and have the same effect before. These items are rarely used and this should fix a bit of the problem with them. Also, why you can't stack Manamune? I think that should be solved aswell.

Athene's Unholy Grail
Mana regeneration increased to 1.5% from 1%
Restore effect on kill or assist lowered from 12% to 8%
Magic Resistance increased from 36 to 40

While this item is actually a bit overlooked, some champs can get it and dominate a teamfight if they get a kill or assist with it. It should be more viable to multiple champions and shouldn't make that big impacts into teamfights.

The Hex Core
Riot said they would want to give it a lategame upgrade? where is it?

Augment: Death 2
Upgrade Cost: 2500
55 Ability Power. Passive: +3 ability power per level. Death Ray sets fire to enemies, dealing 40% additional magic damage over 4 seconds.

Augment: Gravity 2
Upgrade Cost: 2500
20 Cooldown Reduction, 500 Mana, 15 Mana Regeneration. Passive: +3 ability power per level Gravity Field has an additional 40% cast range.

Augment: Power 2
Upgrade Cost: 2500
400 Health, 10 Health Regeneration. Passive: +3 ability power per level. Power Transfer increases Viktor's movement speed by 40% for 3 seconds.

Boots of Speed
Cost increased to 370 from 350, combination cost of all other boots lowered by 20.

This change is one of the most important. It has the goal to stop the 4. pot start and should make more options as start item viable.

Brawler's Gloves
Cost decreased to 370 from 400, combination cost of all other items which it builds in increased by 30.

Again, same idea, make it more viable as a start item. Some people like Tryndamere will like this.

Ruby Crystal
Cost decreased to 440, combination cost of all items which it builds in increased by 35, except catalyst the protector and Leviathan.

Another more viable start item. 1 pot can make this item very cost efficient.

catalyst the protector
Combination cost decreased to 300.

This is a change which should Rod of Ages on multiple mages viable again. It should also power up people which rely on it to stay in lane ( Singed). The biggest problem of this item is, that you have to get it early but it costs too much for that. With a cost of 1040 it should be fixed.

Rod of Ages
No direct changes

With the indirect changes to the items which it builds out it costs now 2750 gold. Should be overall more viable.

Banshee's Veil
Health and Mana increased to 400, Passive Cooldown reduced to 40 seconds.
Combination cost increased to 820.

This item was once considered the best item in the game..., until riot decided to destroy it. This should bring the item back into the item builds. Cost is also slightly lowered due to the catalyst change.

Doran's Blade / Doran's Ring / Doran's Shield
Cost reduced to 440, HP is now unique, HP of shield increased to 150, HP from Blade/Ring increased to 100.

This should bring those 3 items back to what they were concipated. As a start item. ATM, it is a stack item after boots. This should change that.

Leviathan
HP per stack increased to 54 from 32.

So this item finally can be cost efficient, someway.

I think these are enough changes for the moment, maybe more later.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Lugignaf » June 4, 2012 10:17am | Report
NicknameMy wrote:

I think, actually, some items are unbalanced if you compare them to offers. Actually, nearly no mage gets Rod of Ages and the only start item you see are Boots of Speed. Finally, dat Doran's stacking. I would want to fix that.

You clearly don't know what your talking about.
Anivia, Swain and sometimes Karthus all get these.

NicknameMy wrote:

Archangel's Staff / Manamune
Change the passive mana stacking per spells so it is exactly like Tear of the Goddess.


You are literally making the items worse.

NicknameMy wrote:

Athene's Unholy Grail
Mana regeneration increased to 2% from 1%
Restore effect on kill or assist lowered from 12% to 8%
Magic Resistance increased from 36 to 40


The bold things are the only things I like. Mostly because that's the only things that were lacking.
Unfortunately, if you're getting this item, you're not going to get much mana back from the passive unless you have some big mana item like... Rod of Ages maybe?


NicknameMy wrote:

Boots of Speed
Cost increased to 370 from 350, combination cost of all other boots lowered by 20.

This change is one of the most important. It has the goal to stop the 4. pot start and should make more options as start item viable.

Why do this? Sure you're making the boot+4pot start way less appealing but, people will still start with boots+3pot. It's way too effective not to unless you're an AD carry or support.

NicknameMy wrote:

Brawler's Gloves
Cost decreased to 370 from 400, combination cost of all other items which it builds in increased by 30.

Nope. People don't need crit chance and 3 potions.

NicknameMy wrote:

Ruby Crystal
Cost decreased to 440, combination cost of all items which it builds in increased by 35, except catalyst the protector and Leviathan.

Another more viable start item. 1 pot can make this item very cost efficient.

Too cost efficient.

NicknameMy wrote:

catalyst the protector and it's family.

The big question here is, "Why?"
You're not really changing anything other than cost which changes nothing. 150 gold was about a minion wave or 2. That's about 30 seconds in lane.


NicknameMy wrote:

Leviathan
HP per stack increased to 45 from 32.

So this item finally can be cost efficient, someway.

I think these are enough changes for the moment, maybe more later.


Until you find out the HP/stack that makes it be efficient at 6 stacks, it's still less cost effective than other items.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NicknameMy » June 4, 2012 12:21pm | Report
4-5 champs, wow, that is so much..

Actually, most of the time I hear people complain about that they could stack tear easier than archangel and because of that they don't upgrade it. It isn't even a mayor change.

Combined with the change to Rod of Ages, I think this combo should work better.

If you look at it in combination with the doran's change you will see, that starting with doran's is viable aswell.

And? Still noobs will like it. Lets give the noobs a bit more options.

Another option vs doran's and boots. After your theroy, why start with ruby if you can start with boots.^^

Why? As I explained, if you want it, you want it as early as possible. Think about someone like Singed top lane, he really loves getting Catalyst early. You can get this now quicker and this way improve the laning phase.

Simply math: (x*6+180)/1240=430/1100 , with http://www.mathepower.com/gleichungen.php I got 50,788, so 51 is the right value. But because it is a stack item, we go onto 54. This way it is more cost efficient.

With ruby after my change it would be 54,545. So I think, it is fine.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Lugignaf » June 4, 2012 12:29pm | Report
NicknameMy wrote:

Actually, most of the time I hear people complain about that they could stack tear easier than archangel and because of that they don't upgrade it. It isn't even a mayor change.

You realize that tear and staff both charge by the same amount per spell cast, right?
And if you make Manamune's passive mana stacking only charge on spellcasts, it's going to be harder to charge.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NicknameMy » June 4, 2012 12:32pm | Report
Lugignaf wrote:


You realize that tear and staff both charge by the same amount per spell cast, right?
And if you make Manamune's passive mana stacking only charge on spellcasts, it's going to be harder to charge.


No, while Tear of the Goddess charges 2 times in 6 seconds, Archangel's Staff and Manamune charge once in 3 seconds. While some don't see the difference, it is actually quite huge for spammable casters.

And i never mentioned to change the passsive auto attack effect on Manamune, only the spell based.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Jpikachu1999 » June 5, 2012 11:56am | Report
NicknameMy wrote:

I think, actually, some items are unbalanced if you compare them to offers. Actually, nearly no mage gets Rod of Ages and the only start item you see are Boots of Speed. Finally, dat Doran's stacking. I would want to fix that.


Uh, what the hell. Of course starting items are Boots of Speed to avoid skill shots and for lane sustain. Doran's stacking is efficient, even with repeated nerfs to Doran's items. People still buy Rod of Ages, I build it pretty regularly. I really wonder if you know what you are talking about, since you are covering a very small selection of mid champs that never build Rod of Ages. True not every mage buys this every game, but it's viable on like 80% of the mages in the game.

NicknameMy wrote:

Archangel's Staff / Manamune
Change the passive mana stacking per spells so it is exactly like Tear of the Goddess.
The passive AD convertion on Manamune is no longer unique.


I like the passive conversion on Manamune no longer being unique, but the thing about being like Tear are really bad. Manamune is only good on "some" AD's, because it stacks faster than Archangel's Staff and Tear of the Goddess. They should honestly change Tear to be like them.

NicknameMy wrote:

Athene's Unholy Grail
Mana regeneration increased to 2% from 1%
Restore effect on kill or assist lowered from 12% to 8%
Magic Resistance increased from 36 to 40


Why would you increase the mana regeneration? Mages normally have some type of mana regeneration outside of Chalice of Harmony or Athene's Unholy Grail. Basically, you're saying that I should have 200% increased mana regeneration at 0% mana? I already get like 60 mana regen are like 50% mana.

NicknameMy wrote:

The Hex Core
Riot said they would want to give it a lategame upgrade? where is it?

Augment: Death 2
55 Ability Power. Passive: +3 ability power per level. Death Ray sets fire to enemies, dealing 40% additional magic damage over 4 seconds.

Augment: Gravity 2
20 Cooldown Reduction, 500 Mana, 15 Mana Regeneration. Passive: +3 ability power per level Gravity Field has an additional 40% cast range.

Augment: Power 2
400 Health, 10 Health Regeneration. Passive: +3 ability power per level. Power Transfer increases Viktor's movement speed by 40% for 3 seconds.


Unless they are supposed to be even further upgrades, but still, they would need a pretty ridiculous price tag.

Augment: Death: Sure, 500 AP Death Ray + 40% extra damage. It's already fairly powerful as it is, this is just making it ridiculous. Plus, your giving it around the AP of a Needlessly Large Rod. That's at least like 3400 gold.

Augment: Gravity: So this is like Frozen Heart but AP instead of armor. Tack on an Athene's Unholy Grail with this, and you literally have infinite sustain/poke/mana. It's gotta be at least 3000 gold.

Augment: Power: Give me a Giant's Belt, Rejuvenation Bead, Amplifying Tome, and a mini Shurelya's Reverie active (on your Q). Not strong at all, not at all. That's at least 3500 gold in my eyes.

NicknameMy wrote:

Boots of Speed
Cost increased to 370 from 350, combination cost of all other boots lowered by 20.

This change is one of the most important. It has the goal to stop the 4. pot start and should make more options as start item viable.


So people just start Boots + 3 pots, I do it 75% of the time anyways, as I need to cover buffs for invade/help my jungler with their buff. I figure that having a happier and healthier jungler will help more than one extra potion.

NicknameMy wrote:

Brawler's Gloves
Cost decreased to 370 from 400, combination cost of all other items which it builds in increased by 30.


Yes, let's give Tryndamere and Gangplank an even stronger start than they already have.

NicknameMy wrote:

Ruby Crystal
Cost decreased to 440, combination cost of all items which it builds in increased by 35, except catalyst the protector and Leviathan.


People still aren't going to start with this. If you really want health top lane, you are probably going to get Doran's Shield even with the increased price, as it's better to have armor and health regen than straight health.

NicknameMy wrote:

catalyst the protector
Combination cost decreased to 300.


It's not that hard to farm up to 1300 gold as a mid laner. If you get either of it's recipe items it gives some nice lane sustain either way as well, so I don't see that much of a point for this. I guess it's an ease of life. Might make it too cost efficient though.

NicknameMy wrote:

Rod of Ages
No direct changes

With the indirect changes to the items which it builds out it costs now 2750 gold. Should be overall more viable.


Yes, please give me a Needlessly Large Rod, Giant's Belt, 3 Sapphire Crystals, and a Catalyst the Protector. You are just trying to make stuff too cost efficient. Even with your price reduction on Catalyst The Protector, thats like 5000 gold worth of stats in a 2750 package. We don't really need that.

NicknameMy wrote:

Banshee's Veil
Health and Mana increased to 400, Passive Cooldown reduced to 40 seconds.
Combination cost increased to 820.


How did Riot destroy it? It's still one of the best magic resist items in the game, and that spell shield is priceless. This doesn't need any changes.

NicknameMy wrote:

Doran's Blade / Doran's Ring / Doran's Shield
Cost reduced to 440, HP is now unique, HP of shield increased to 150, HP from Blade/Ring increased to 100.


It's not like stacking them is super OP. You are giving up 3 slots if you stack 3 of them, and they all are at a reasonable place right now. Doran's items don't need to be changed.

NicknameMy wrote:

Leviathan
HP per stack increased to 45 from 32.


I don't care, no one buys it anyways, and most people stay away from any of the true snowball items.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by NicknameMy » June 6, 2012 12:14pm | Report
If you watch pro play, you see 90% of the mages rush Rabadon's Deathcap and Deathfire Grasp, no more Rod of Ages, for HP they got Rylai's Crystal Scepter

Read again, I even made the mana stacking on auto attacks through Manamune better.

Yeah, maybe it is a bit too much. But it should be more since you upgrade the item.

Multiple stats nerfed. But the hex-cores should be lategame at the same lvl as Rabadon's Deathcap because they cost you 1 item slot.

I just wanted to stop the 4 pots start. Nothing more to say. Just a change to accept, if it doesn't change anything for you.

After your theory, they could get boots aswell.

Shen might not agree with you.

catalyst the protector is no item if you are at front and can farm anything, it is an item if you are behind or you rely on it to do something. I think for that the price was too high and a 1 minute earlier catalyst the protector can mean a way better game for them.

Oh it was so cost efficient, still 90% didn't get it.

That is because only Ryze buys it atm.^^

Just watch pro streams. Anybody which can have a bit of use out of them, they stack it with at least 2. Doran's were never concipated as a stack item, for that they are too cost efficient, they are concipated as a start item.

Just balancing, again nothing that affects you. But a Shen could be happy with that.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Jpikachu1999 » June 6, 2012 5:06pm | Report
I watch a decent amount of pro play, and yeah, most of them rush those items. That's really for 2 reasons.

1) They are professionals, they are good at the game and positioning for a reason. Not all normal players have the level of experience and skill as them (no offense meant to anyone).

2) If they are practicing with their team, their team knows what the hell to do. They've practiced together, know their own strategies, know who to protect/focus, plus they usually are in voice chat with their team then.

The normal, more casual player (myself, for example) take a safer route that gives less damage, as we likely get out of position more often. Also, just gonna say, not all mages can make good use of Rylai's Crystal Scepter. Quite a few can't, and I would rather have more health and mana than a slow which may or may not help me. Of course, on the champions it's good on I'll get it, but otherwise, no.

I like the new Manamune changes, good job.




The whole upgrades for The Hex Core, I'm not saying nerf them (ok, maybe a little), but at least make their upgrade price tag like 2000 (second upgrade, 3000 gold in total)? The way you have it now, you are giving these things:

Augment: Death upgrade: You are gonna give me a Needlessly Large Rod plus 40% extra damage on Death Ray. From this item alone, you are getting 104 AP which translates to 73 extra damage on Death Ray, which then translates into 129 extra damage over time (rank 5 ray). That's a large amount, for just one item. Considering a full build, you're talking about a ton of extra damage, possibly around 700 extra damage.

Augment: Gravity upgrade: 20% CDR, let's just tack a 1300 dollar price tag on that. 83% of a mana crystal, 330 gold. Meki Pendant + Faerie Charm = 570 gold. I'm just going to price the range upgrade on 1000 gold. That's about 3200 gold's worth of stats in your now 2500 gold cost item. Actually, just forgot, you are getting like 54 AP from it as well. That adds to it more.

Augment: Power upgrade: 2/3 of a Regrowth Pendant = 287 gold. 5/6 of 2 health crystals = about 790 gold. 54 AP again, price that how ever you will. A mini Shurelya's Reverie active on your Q (which is like what, 5 second cooldown?), that's gotta be at least 1500 gold. 2577 not counting the AP.




It's not that you need to necessarily nerf the items, but you need to at least up the price tag on the upgrades.

I've never seen a Shen start with Ruby Crystal. It's always Boots + 3 pots, or Doran's Shield, once in a while Cloth + 5 pots. Never Ruby Crystal though.

Catalyst the Protector: I dunno, I got it quite often cause I build it into a Rod of Ages like I've stated before. It's never been a "I'm behind need to catch up item", I'd just stack Doran's Rings then. Also, if I'm behind, I don't usually build Banshee's Veil too often (except Ryze, on which it's core), simply because I usually need more damage and not straight defense.

Stacking Doran's items is fine in my opinion. Like I said, yes, they are cost efficient. Do they sell well? No. They are at a decent spot right now, and you have to sell them later for other items anyways.

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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by davidcarl » June 17, 2012 8:34pm | Report
What is he talking about?
If I AP DPS with some HP i just go with this build.

Tear of the Goddess
Whichever Boots I prefer
Rod of Ages
Rod of Ages
Rylai's Crystal Scepter
Archangel's Staff
Rabadon's Deathcap

I do this mostly with Ryze & Swain. I sometimes change some items to Zhonya's Hourglass if armor needed, Will of the Ancients for lifesteal. You get the idea.

The only thing I agree with you is Leviathan. It gives too low of HP even at 20 stacks at it's current state, and btw, It appears 70% of the time in my Ultimate Bravery.
What's red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet at the same time? Rainbow
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by MrMiyamotoTaco » June 20, 2012 1:58am | Report
Blasting Wand Should Build into Needlessly Large Rod
Long Sword Should Build into B. F. Sword
Ruby Crystal Should Build into Giant's Belt

Just saying
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