DFG is being removed.

[quote=HiFromBuddha][quote=XeresAce][quote=HiFromBuddha]Would it help if I said every champion that has DFG as a core item is getting compensation? Yes, [[Ahri]] and [[Veigar]] buffs have been confirmed by Riot themselves, and there's surely more to come.' If a champion doesn't end up getting any compensation, then chances are, they're probably already strong as is. I could spend a lot of time explaining why I support this change, but I probably won't be saying anything that hasn't been reiterated [url=http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/GinIa17t-52-live-gameplay-patch-forecast]here[/url].[/quote] Oh give me a break... First they nerf everything about mage ahri, change her charm and numbers so she basically becomes an ap assassin and then remove dfg to make her back in to a mage without shifting back her numbers and removing the amp from charm, effectively putting her in some sort of stupid in between position of a backline mage with assassin tools which will either end up being way too strong or way too weak with no way to balance it... Make up your mind. Do you want ahri to dash around teamfights and poke with her Q, going in for cleanup kills after targets have been whittled down or do you want her to use her superior mobility and long range cc tool to catch and kill people out of position? She can't do both. She'll either be too weak at either to justify being picked over champions who excel in 1 of those things or too strong at both and become dominant... The "I got oneshot out of nowhere" argument is absolute SHIT. If you play against an assassin you have to be wary of your positioning or you will get your face melted. If you play as an assassin you have to be very opportunistic and mindful of your timing or you will 1, end up without a kill and 2, get your face melted. Leblanc usually has to use her dash to get in range in the first place, what kind of risky plays do you expect from her? Walk up to people and just hope they remain still long enough so you can use w for damage? "Some are strong enough that losing dfg is a healthy nerf" Hahahaha... you fucking suck riot and so do your arguments. "losing dfg" they say, as if it was an integral part of their kit to the point that it seems that they were designed around it. OH WAIT! Woopsie. They don't even PLAN to add a 120 ap alternative unless they deem it necessary? WHAT THE ACTUAL FLYING MOTHER OF FUCK? So, late game ap carries are supposed to buy two Hourglasses/Deathcaps? Their compensation better be good because nerfing 30~ champions at once right before season starts is a really bold move[/quote] They nerfed mage [[ahri]] because assassin [[Ahri]] was so overwhelming. It was strictly better because of the existence of DFG. It really is as simple as that. DFG is now removed, and that means any buffs to mage [[Ahri]] won't mean that assassin [[Ahri]] will benefit more over it. Additionally, all that power budget stuff I said above applies once again. Of course, positioning is a very valid point. If you're out of position with a [[Leblanc]] on the other team, then yes, you do deserve to be bursted immediately. And yes, if you choose a wrong time to engage as an assassin, you deserve to die as well. But what doesn't change is the fact that this is still very binary in how it works. I'll just use an unconventional but easy example. If you are caught out of position by an AP [[Malphite]] and he unloads his DFG combo onto you, there's only two outcomes, none of which can be affected in anyway. Either he has enough damage to kill you in a split second, or he doesn't have enough damage to kill you and you can make your escape due to his lack of short spammable cooldowns. Riot's aim is to make a game that is both competitive and fun. Would you consider this type of gameplay which is promoted by DFG to be fun? I personally wouldn't, because there's a lack of interaction and meaningful ways to deal with the situation. As I said, DFG promotes this type of gameplay. With DFG, you'll generally find that after you use it, the only real outcome of it is that the assassin will try to load all the damage they possibly can as fast as they can on you. And generally, this is incredibly binary. Gameplay isn't changed at all other than you have to press one more button and you get more damage. Assassins do not all have to follow this incredibly binary route in dealing with them. [[Zed]] is my personal favourite example of a good assassin. When [[Zed]] proceeds to use [[Death Mark]], there are a multitude of options for the chosen target to deal with it, whether it is dashing out and kiting, CCing the [[Zed]] and making an escape, or just using whatever they can do to help live out the damage. [[Quicksilver sash]] is another option, but it's an option I consider to be very one-way and does not offer any interesting scenarios. [[Zed]], however, needs to react to whatever is happening. Of course, while I agree that [[Zed]]'s gameplay is no better than AP assassins using DFG, there are still a some limited reactions that can be done. Yes, it does apply to DFG users as well that there are some varying options depending on the reaction, but the most heavy abusers of DFG generally do not allow for counterplay measures to be taken, whether it's [[Charm]] or the fact that all the damage is loaded onto one ability such as [[Urchin Strike]]. In the end, I would recommend just waiting out the PBE cycle and seeing what changes are made. We haven't seen the changes ourselves yet, so we definitely should not form completely impenetrable walls to defend out opinion until we've seen the changes. I'm sure that there is no doubt that you would realise that the changes do have potential to be ones that you are happy with. I myself have acknowledged that Riot has the possibility to fuck up these changes, and then I would be just as annoyed as you are.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]^ I'm not really worried that assassin ahri will get too strong again, my worry is that because of ahri's extreme cause of dual identity in the game she will have to cope with being a mediocre mage and mediocre assassin and will just flat out get overshadowed by very noteworthy assassins/mages. They could've nerfed her damages and scalings more but reduced cool downs and mana costs to turn her into a sort of spammy champion which did a lot of damage over time rather than a lot at once. Boom, now she can't abuse dfg to oneshot people anymore. Yet, they decided to pigeonhole her in to an assassin for no real reason >_> Things like AP malphite are quite toxic but more or less champion specific problems which could've been addressed in a different way. Personally, I love playing an assassin - you either do or die. What's the point if everything turns in to a magical stallfest of flying skillshots and clean up crews? Where's the rush? Where's the fun? What's the point if every lane turns in to a xerath vs lux lane? I would personally get bored out of my mind. Personally I feel as Zed isn't a well designed assassin at all. He can out-duel bruisers and tanks easily, can sustain himself during prolonged fights due to his access to life steal which allows him to outlast champions who were actually meant for dueling and to top it all of he has a crap load of burst which he can use to decimate squishes as fast as any dfg assassin. Jump in 2-3 Q's simultaneously, throw out an e and a passive empowered auto and not only is a carry dangerously low but they'll die if they don't have QSS... To top this all of, he can aoe clear waves which makes him an ideal splitpusher since nobody can really stop him lest he's behind. He's more of a duelist with strong assassin properties than a true assassin imo. Don't even mention fizz to me, idk what the devs were thinking when they designed him. tbh I'm just outraged that rito is pushing out such a huge change without giving actual context and a week before season starts...[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy][[quicksilver sash]] is an item, which adds so much counterplay into the game that it turns some champions into useless to use. There shouldn't be 1 item in the game that makes 1 champion totally useless. A champion ability, yes, but no item. I think it should no longer remove debuffs like [[children of the grave]] or [[death mark]], as they already have enough counters against them. [[children of the grave]]: Stay out of range of the enemys until it wears off. [[death mark]]: [[zhonya's hourglass]], escape before [[zed]] deals any damage, etc. There is no reason why [[quicksilver sash]] should make [[mordekaiser]] completly useless to use when there are other ways to counterplay. For that, [[banshee's veil]] should be enough in terms of items.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]Morde should get a bit of love from the devs. Removing DFG really screws with his late game power and he really needs some sort of way to deal with ganks early on due to his auto push characteristics. I agree that it shouldn't remove the children of the grave debuff as it is now. If morde's ulti gets a buff or gets shifted to do more instant damage rather than over time then it could probably stay as it is. Death mark, on the other hand, already has enough problems. I don't think removing the usability of the only item in the game which adc's can utilize to counter zed properly is a good move yet. It's also a little dumb how powerful zed's ulti is. You can start the cast just as an enemy jump animation starts (Valkyrie, rocket jump, 90 caliber net) and then end up right next to your target anyway. Not only this, but this way you're using your target's gap closer as a way to make your dive even safer cause you can teleport back to a shadow which is a hefty distance away from the heat of battle...[/quote]

[quote=HiFromBuddha][quote=XeresAce] Personally I feel as Zed isn't a well designed assassin at all. He can out-duel bruisers and tanks easily, can sustain himself during prolonged fights due to his access to life steal which allows him to outlast champions who were actually meant for dueling and to top it all of he has a crap load of burst which he can use to decimate squishes as fast as any dfg assassin. Jump in 2-3 Q's simultaneously, throw out an e and a passive empowered auto and not only is a carry dangerously low but they'll die if they don't have QSS... To top this all of, he can aoe clear waves which makes him an ideal splitpusher since nobody can really stop him lest he's behind. [/quote] That's more him being ridiculously overtuned than his actual design though. Also, read to the end of the Patch Forecast. They're addressing some of the issues you bring up. But yes, by using [[Zed]] as an example, I was directly referring to the nature of how he assassinates, and how it is a good way of making assassins so there is a way to deal with him. The [[Zed]] assassination playstyle that you describe pretty much applies to every assassin with some alterations, except without the delay. (Of course, same can be said for what I say, but that's mainly because assassins as a whole are fairly binary right now)[/quote]

[quote=Electro522]You know, I love it when Im able to start conversations like this.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Well, [[Zed]] oneshots an ADC even without his ultimate. There is also enough CC in a game to stop a Zed. Also, [[Banshee's Veil]] or [[guardian angel]] can stop [[zed]] as well.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Guys, the only reason for DFG removal is balance. DFG isn't out of balance, but it forces Riot to balance all burst mages around that item. Without that item balance is a lot easier. Obviously Riot will compensate some champions like they did with the [[lich bane]] nerfs. "Well then. Thought we'd have another day to talk about this. There'll be a larger forecast by Jag that goes more in-depth on DFG, but the TLDR is this is something we've always wanted to investigate, given its game-skewing powers (doubling down on super burst, forcing us to balance champions 'around' their DFG potential, etc). We did this initially with BOTRK where we lowered its burst and amped up its auto attack potential, but DFG is obviously not one where we can do so. Doing this also frees us to look at champions who have been super reliant on DFG while also investigating if we need to make item changes in the future. WAIT FOR THE FORECAST OKAY."[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]I cannot agree with the DFG removal. The item had an active with limited range and demanded both tempo and positioning to pull off . If you were subjected to DFG, you were in range, just like with every other ability. It's the same as a Zed/Kat ult: if they pull it off well, they deserved it because either your team was a) Engaged correctly; b) blew their cc and failed to save what was needed to stop the assassins; Most DFG correct usage situations where mostly the fault of the target combined with a well-thought trap/engage from the user. You [b]deserve[/b] to be blown apart if you're facechecking into a mage, be it lebonkers or syndra. You don't deserve to escape with 50 hp due to flash + heal because they no longer have DFG when you were stupid enough to put yourself in that situation. (I do agree Syndra's laning was oppressive though, but that's her numbers + range + abilities more than just the DFG) I just feel like it's ridiculous how AD assassins are allowed to kill you in 0.3 seconds but apparently mages aren't. Leblanc will need to pull off pretty much every single ability now, Ahri will need to expose herself ridiculously or pull off really amazing [[charm]] (her range is pretty mediocre, she has no real resistances), Syndra will...still press R I guess, Mordekaiser - who is already pretty freaking crappy - will leave even more space for the target of his ult to get shields and healing effects on top of him. On the other hand, if they're going to balance around the non-existance of dfg, lolz. Either they'll give them better scaling/numbers which will try to replace an item - which means they'll get more damage even if they're playing like crap, whereas DFG actually costed gold - or these buffs will be pretty eh. tl;dr: fuck this shit. @XeresAce: I think you're overestimating the real users of DFG though, it's nowhere near half the ap midlaners unless you're meaning top tier ones, and even then not really. Or you're building DFG on [[lux]], meaning I'll have to slap you sometime in the near future.[/quote]

[quote=Zordagoth][quote=XeresAce] Syndra is gonna need increased damage on her ultimate now [/quote] [img]http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/153/7/c/slap__small__by_tw1stal1cky-d67kfpx.png[/img] Syndra needs nothing more than complete deletion from this planet... Nah but seriously she's really powerful right now, no buffs needed for sure ... Or you can keep calm and wait for Riot to announce the compensations they'll make for "DFG mage" ^^ I do think too that [[leblanc]] will still be fine (with some lil' compensations ofc), [[katarina]] too, people already built DFG before Kat nerfs but you can get away without it, getting the first reset will be a bit harder probably ;). "Broken item for Broken champ" I feel like more "Overkill Item"[/quote]