What if we changed TF's ult?

[quote=JunSupport]@Searz: [u]You have to remember this isn't an Ultimate spell...[/u] From Riot's examples so far, only Vladimir's [[Hemoplague]] amp's allied damage. I got rid of the damage because having it give damage lead to one of two things: 1. His nuke ended up being too strong, and too frequent. OR 2. My idea for the skill did too little damage to be a decent skill. [u]My goal is not to give a stylish ability that synergizes with [[Destiny]] and TF's kit, not a straight up nuke combo.[/u] So, I removed the damage, which let me give it more utility as a reveal. The spell has 1400 range, with the same sort of sight-radius as a normal champion. So you could scout dragon/baron from adjacent red/blue buff camps, or check out brushes from safe distances. This kind if utility is part of why [{Ashe]] can be really strong, and the damage amp + buffing [[Wild Cards]]'s AP-ratio makes his bursts very strong late game. You wouldn't be able to nuke down 70%+ health off a person like [[Akali]] or [[Annie]] would, but you'd be able to take out at least 40~50% every half-minute which is seriously nice. [u] But, I did just remember that [[Lich Bane]] deals physical damage. So here's a revised version that would be balanced and work on both kinds.[/u] [quote] -Stacked Deck- Passive: Twisted Fate's cooldowns are reduced by 7/9/11/13/15%. Active: Twisted Fate tosses a hidden card to a target location, revealing the area after arriving for 5 seconds. Upon a second activation or at the end of its duration, the card scatters, revealing struck targets 7 seconds. While targets are revealed, Twisted Fate's attacks and abilities deal additional true damage equivalent to 7/9/11/13/15% of that attack or ability's total. Range - 1400 AoE range - 600 Cooldown - 25/24/23/22/21 seconds[/quote] I increased reveal time because I realized 5 seconds was puny considering the ability's cooldown. 7 seconds gives you more time: if you say, scout dragon and catch an enemy in your reveal, you have enough time to cast Destiny, Gate in and still benefit from the damage-amp. I got rid of the amp, and added additional true damage. This works on all forms of damage that TF can acquire, including items [[Lich Bane]], [[Deathfire Grasp]], and [[Hextech Gunblade]]. The actual number has to be reduced because true damage is unmitigated and the increased reveal duration. I chose true damage, because I'm partial to AP TF, and don't really want to give any incentive for building Armor-Penetration on DPS TF, which is what a flat-amplification would do. :P [u]@Rudmed:[/u] The point of this idea is to give Twisted Fate high-utility. And, Shaco does amp his own damage situationally. It's called [[Backstab]]. I believe Backstab works on [[Two-Shiv Poison]], [[Hallucinate]], items, and possibly JitBs too. Poppy self-amps, hers is implanted in her [[Diplomatic Immunity]]. That's why [[Deathfire Grasp]] is so strong on AP Poppy. There are assassins that do not amp, but they all have ways of snowballing their damage given the right situations; you just happened to name the two WITH amps to claim lack of amps on. XD You have to remember that because of [[Destiny]], Twisted Fate's combos can never EVER, do as much as a normal nuke. Normal nukes all require their Ultimates to deal those amazing spike-damage values. Naturally, TF who only uses Q/W/E much be weaker. With this, he'd be a bit of an off-nuke with high reveal-utility. Which makes his kit mesh together more completely as a whole. [u]Though, I suppose this version I've revised now makes AD TF and Hybrid TF stay viable too. 15% additional true damage is beastly on a dps... [/u] Corki's [[Hextech Shrapnel Shells]] deal only additional 10% true damage, and it's only on basic attacks. It's more or less balanced two to lack of damage, the cooldown, and secondary incentive to use it as a reveal; being more DPS-favorable means Riot may like the idea more too. ^_^[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]@Jun Yeah, I guess your right. I just see alot of damage capablites with TF, and you could say I got greedy while trying to cater to all types of TF players. Though wouldn't flat amp just help both? I know true damage helps both, but I think Riot wants to try and keep this champion as flexible as possible (Where is my AA range buff darn it). So imo it doesn't really matter with the way that its phrased it just helps all TFs. Also I think picking poppy and Leblanc was to show two true assassins as the phrase goes. They pick a target, and make it die. While they can amp their damage, Xin, kass, and Irelia (along with many others), can't. Edit: No I was trying to point out that assassins don't really boost other's stats, but rather give themselves an advantage over their target (boosted damage, a clone that does extra damage, postioning, or a root in place, or super chaser). Though the above is true as well. Now I like the revisions, and while TF's ratios could use a boost, or base stats I don't really care which increasing base stats, would help both. @Zeprido, I think putting in the slow wouldn't be asking for too much. I think it would work well with Jun's new idea, but now would it be a global slow, or just the warp range slow? Also something else, some summoners want the activation of TF's ult to give assists if possible. Your thoughts on it? I personally believe if I can use my ult as noct, and get two kills from people dying to a tower, TF should get the same treatment.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Rudmed: Quick History Note: Kassadin was originally suppose to be an Anti-Mage. He does have an amp for his AS through [[Weapon Mastery]]. [[Nether Blade]] originally drained mana, and made him a beast at crushing Annies and Veigars. He was very OP in that respect, and [[Wit's End]] was a core item. He was swiftly nerfed in a following patch. Anyways, Riot doesn't want TF to be a carry. AD TF is put in the same boat as champions like Shaco and Nocturne; assassins, not carries. The only different is he's ranged. That's something I learned and accepted a long time ago. I also support and appreciate this bit of Riot's view because I prefer AP TF anyway. That's why a range buff is unlikely. And, boring. Directly amp'ing the damage only works on Kayle's [[Reckoning]] because she's a hybrid. And again, I'm partial to AP TF, so I'd prefer there be less incentive to building AD. ... With that in mind, here's a final iteration. [quote] While targets are revealed, Twisted Fate's attacks and abilities deal additional bonus [u]magic damage[/u] equivalent to 9/12/15/18/21% of that attack or ability's total output.[/quote][/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=JunSupport] [u]You have to remember this isn't an Ultimate spell...[/u] From Riot's examples so far, only Vladimir's [[Hemoplague]] amp's allied damage.[/quote] Sure, but at 4 or 5% it's a third of what Vlad gives and that really isn't much.. It's also mitigated by MR and armor. [quote]I got rid of the amp, and added additional true damage. This works on all forms of damage that TF can acquire, including items [[Lich Bane]], [[Deathfire Grasp]], and [[Hextech Gunblade]]. The actual number has to be reduced because true damage is unmitigated and the increased reveal duration.[/quote] Yea, it would prolly need a nerf to about 6/7/8/9/10% since it's both abilities and attacks. [quote]While targets are revealed, Twisted Fate's attacks and abilities deal additional bonus magic damage equivalent to 9/12/15/18/21% of that attack or ability's total output.[/quote] OP >.> I'd put it at about 10/12/14/16/18% since it scales perfectly with itemization/levels. But then again, I'd rather change it differently.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]Jun, I may not be expressing this clear enough. The most recent version of the increased damage will be just like [[pick a card]]. Lets say I'm going AD TF, and I hit someone with the active. Now my autoattacks will do physical damage, and a % of that damage will be dealt as additonal magic damage. [[Pick a card]] stacks with AD, but does magic damage anyways. It won't scale with AP because it deals magic damage. It will be completly based off TF's ability's damage. @Searz: you know that you can throw out your own ideas here right?[/quote]

[quote=Searz]- Wild cards - Passive: Twisted Fate's cooldowns are reduced by 3/6/9/12/15%. Active: Twisted Fate throws 3 cards which deal 60/90/120/150/180 (+0.5 per AP) magic damage and applies a debuff that makes all targets hit take 5% extra damage for 3seconds. Cost - 60/65/70/75/80 Range - 1100 Cooldown - 14 seconds - Explosive revelations - Active: Twisted Fate tosses a card to a target location dealing 20/35/50/65/80 (+0.2 per AP) magic damage to all targets hit. Upon a second activation or at the end of its path, the card scatters, dealing 70/120/170/220/270 (+0.7 per AP) magic damage. Also reveals an area twice as large as the AOE for 2 seconds. Cost - 70/75/80/85/90 Range - 1000 AoE - 250 Card size while traveling - 40 (like 10 to 20% smaller than the AOE of each card in Wild Cards) Cooldown - 11/10/9/8/7 seconds ----- Just an idea. I don't know how well it will mash with his Pick a Card, but I really like the spell I've come up with.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=Searz] [quote=JunSupport] [u]You have to remember this isn't an Ultimate spell...[/u] From Riot's examples so far, only Vladimir's [[Hemoplague]] amp's allied damage.[/quote] Sure, but at 4 or 5% it's a third of what Vlad gives and that really isn't much.. It's also mitigated by MR and armor.[/quote] [[Reckoning]] originally started with 4%. It was considered overpowered. You also have to consider the leveling rate. It doesn't stay rank 1 forever, people can freely max out skills as they please. Looking at a single value on the first rank isn't how a well-balanced skill is made. You have to consider best-case scenarios before buffing the worst-case ones.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed][quote=Searz] - Wild cards - Passive: Twisted Fate's cooldowns are reduced by 3/6/9/12/15%. Active: Twisted Fate throws 3 cards which deal 60/90/120/150/180 (+0.5 per AP) magic damage and applies a debuff that makes all targets hit take 5% extra damage for 3seconds. Cost - 60/65/70/75/80 Range - 1100 Cooldown - 14 seconds - Explosive revelations - Active: Twisted Fate tosses a card to a target location dealing 20/35/50/65/80 (+0.2 per AP) magic damage to all targets hit. Upon a second activation or at the end of its path, the card scatters, dealing 70/120/170/220/270 (+0.7 per AP) magic damage. Also reveals an area twice as large as the AOE for 2 seconds. Cost - 70/75/80/85/90 Range - 1000 AoE - 250 Card size while traveling - 40 (like 10 to 20% smaller than the AOE of each card in Wild Cards) Cooldown - 11/10/9/8/7 seconds ----- Just an idea. I don't know how well it will mash with his Pick a Card, but I really like the spell I've come up with. [/quote] We need someone to change the thread title to lets help TF! :) Anyways Searz here is my opinion about your skills. Wild cards got weaker, but more support orientated. Now while I'm okay with it, the debuff will only be able to be applied every 14 seconds? Great you have given him some teamfight presnece, yet you took it away. You throw your gold card, wild cards, and then your new spell. Now while I wait for my [[pick a card]] to come off cooldown there is really nothing else I can do besides autoattack. This makes him like Leblanc, after her burst she sits around and maybe throws a spell or two into the teamfight. Yet as you know his ult isn't a damaging spell. This is just my two cents.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]The new spell has 7sec CD, just like the "old" wild cards?.. I think that wild cards spell is a little OP, sadly. Dunno exactly what to nerf tho. Probably the damage amp to 4%.[/quote]

[quote=Zeprido]They really just need to do something with him. @Rudmed Yes, the slow would only be in the range of the teleport, and it wouldn't be as hard of a slow as before. I'll come back and read the rest of the thread sometime tomorrow.[/quote]