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[quote=PsiGuard]Luther: +Rep for open-mindedness. Duff: Several of your points are reasons why I think Pro guides shouldn't have a scoring system at all. It serves no purpose. It does suck that a lot of the members were quite cruel in their posts, but mostly I think it was because of the brief guides, not the builds themselves. Also sucks that most people will immediately downvote an "unconventional" build. Not much we can do about that though. Wayne: Thanks for joining the discussion. That's a great example of a knowledgeable player being able to glean something useful from a guide. I've always held the view that a build/guide should be viable at high elo, but explain everything a noob needs to know as well. There are quite a few high-rated guides that accomplish this very effectively (in my opinion), so I think for the most part the scoring system is working decently. It's not perfect, but you can generally find a decent build/guide in the top 10 easily enough for most champions. EDIT: Also, any decent/knowledgeable player doesn't "memorize" a build and follow it exclusively. Eventually you're able to understand why certain items work with certain champions, while others are bad choices. You learn how to craft your own build every game you play, even down to the order of the individual item components. You can't learn this by just looking at a cheatsheet; this is one of the reasons that an in-depth guide from a pro would be so useful for a lot of players.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Why all this hate on Duff, lolz? The pro's come, give us what is probably the best build and rune/mastery setup for a champion. I love that. Knowing stuff like that really helps me out since I can figure out for myself that RoA isn't good on Shen. YES absolutely I would love it if the Pro's contributed more to the community and gave us 50k word explanations on their guides. But they don't, so who am I to hate? I got some information that helped me out, i'm cool about that. As Duff says, just because it's well written doesn't mean it's good. And no offense to Jhoi (not that I think your guides are bad) but all her guides are well written, to the majority of the community, they don't care if the items are bad, everything else is good, therefore +1. Not sure if people got what I was saying there anyways... Regardless, take what the pros give you, use it. Don't bitch about how it could be better.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=PsiGuard]It does suck that a lot of the members were quite cruel in their posts, but mostly I think it was because of the brief guides, not the builds themselves.[/quote] If you were a pro, and you had to explain every 20 minutes to some random guy that "This guide is short because i am busy, and the information you are asking for is easily learned by playing the champion for a half an hour." Would you REALLY write more guides?[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Nighthawk] And no offense to Jhoi (not that I think your guides are bad) but all her guides are well written, to the majority of the community, they don't care if the items are bad, everything else is good, therefore +1. Not sure if people got what I was saying there anyways...[/quote] Isn't it the other way around? I thought most people just looked at the items, masteries and runes, and then instantly up/downvoted based off of that without actually reading the guide? 'PMFG NUB, U GO 15/0/15 MASTERIES??? WTF U SMOKIN NOOB I DOWNVOTE' [quote=PsiGuard]Luther: +Rep for open-mindedness.[/quote] Thanks, have one for uhh...makin' a good argument? I wanted to add the reason I've written 0 guides is because I know there's nothing I could say about a champ that isn't already written in a guide by someone else. I'm not experienced enough (yet) with any champion to really give people anything unique and informative. I feel the reason why there are so many bad guides around is that a lot of people just make a guide anyway without realizing they actually have no idea what they're talking about.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]@Nighthawk: I agree with you for the most part. I'm glad the pro builds are there, and I do appreciate the resource that they've made available. I'm sad that they haven't become active members of the site, and I can understand why they wouldn't want to. I don't hate Duff either. We're having a discussion. It doesn't even remotely resemble an argument at this point. And I'm not "bitching" about how the pro guides could be improved. I'm simply saying it would be awesome to have that kind of knowledge available and I would be happy to see them flesh out their guides more. This upvote/downvote business is exactly why I think Pro guides shouldn't be scored. No matter what the guide says, it's still good information, unlike many of the unreliable guides on the site.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=Temzilla] [quote=PsiGuard]It does suck that a lot of the members were quite cruel in their posts, but mostly I think it was because of the brief guides, not the builds themselves.[/quote] If you were a pro, and you had to explain every 20 minutes to some random guy that "This guide is short because i am busy, and the information you are asking for is easily learned by playing the champion for a half an hour." Would you REALLY write more guides? [/quote] I've had to explain and re-explain a lot of things from my own guides. Obviously I don't get as much traffic as a pro would, but if I WERE a pro, I would probably write a thorough guide instead of just posting a build. And they wouldn't have to explain why the guide is short if they made the guide longer. O.o[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=PsiGuard] @Nighthawk: I agree with you for the most part. I'm glad the pro builds are there, and I do appreciate the resource that they've made available. I'm sad that they haven't become active members of the site, and I can understand why they wouldn't want to. I don't hate Duff either. We're having a discussion. It doesn't even remotely resemble an argument at this point. And I'm not "bitching" about how the pro guides could be improved. I'm simply saying it would be awesome to have that kind of knowledge available and I would be happy to see them flesh out their guides more. This upvote/downvote business is exactly why I think Pro guides shouldn't be scored. No matter what the guide says, it's still good information, unlike many of the unreliable guides on the site. [/quote] What I said wasn't at you Psi, you are one of the best members on this site ^^ @Luther I don't think so. Sure a lot of people do that, but I think Mobafire is an exception to that rule. Agree with Tem too. Half the comments on a pro's guides were answered previously or can be learnt by just watching a stream or tourney or whatnot.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Other members dislike me, me and Luther get along well.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]Nighthawk: So my Morgana guide is bad? My Warwick guide is bad? My Ashe guide is bad? My Vayne guide is bad? Those top guides are bad... even though every single one of them has been changed by suggestions of this community, and my own experiences as I mained those champions? Thanks. In terms of being on topic, I don't quite like pro builds. Not because of the lack of information (I only read one pro guide, it was about "the cow" and it said something like "YOU KILL SHIT RAWR" which was when I stopped reading it) but because often the runes make my eyebrows dance. Attack damage seals? Attack damage glyphs? Wow. I'm all for a good early game, but... I think that's ridiculous.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=DuffTime] Other members dislike me, me and Luther get along well. [/quote] I love a cold Duff in the evening.[/quote]