Answering questions considering ADC/Support....

[quote=lanilwow]Joxuu I'm 4 weeks new to this game and level 15. I have not participated in pvp yet. I've been playing bot games and trying to learn and level to 30 before I pvp. I watch lots of Utube, read articles here and else where. Watch Yoonie on Twitch. All to learn support. I love support. Janna in particular. When I can get an ADC that knows what they are doing we can really apply the pressure. I can turtle the lane against bots when I get a bad ADC (I'm sure players opponents would wipe the floor with me). Of course getting an APC makes things a challenge as well. Question: Am I gonna be hosed in pvp? Should I learn another class with some damage output. I was going to work on Sona, but now I am wondering if I should work on Lulu or (soon to be flavor of the month) Brand? Perhaps another? My preferred play style is cautious build up. Farm, and farm fast and when the time is right strike and strike hard. I'm not a hyper aggressive player. What are your thoughts and suggestions for this noob to survive in pvp?[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]Hello there. My advice for you is to experiment things as much as possible to find what's fun and what works for you. I did the mistake of playing -->(only)<-- bot games until level 30. Things get somewhat more serious once you start to head towards the max level. You want experience in playing against others. You get to learn the community (sort of). I can guarantee that you will get your ass completly whooped sometimes in normal games but that's part of the process. You can try and you probably should try other roles than only support. As for your support pick: Do experiment different supports also. [[sona]] is somewhat similiar to [[janna]] and I think you will like the champion. [[lulu]] is a bit more strategic and has different playstyle but [[lulu]] was among the few really fun supports I used to play in normals when I started. I wouldn't probably get hyped over [[brand]] support. Fits more in the mid lane. So my tl;dr advice is to try champions you like in the weekly free champion roulette and experiment things to find out what you like and what you do not. Then you can start thinking more about what you want to do next.[/quote]

[quote=lanilwow]Thank you for the reply. I'll go play around with some other champs and positions. I run Warwick jungle when support gets taken, but against bots all I can do is learn the routes and then team fight at the end. Not much worry about getting ganked in the jungle in those games. I do like to play Ahri but so many people go mid that I don't get a chance to use her. Fiora is who I am working on for top. I think I'll wait till 20 to go play pvp. That way I can run T3 runes. Thanks again!!![/quote]

[quote=cocfight]So since you are a diamond level ADC player and I am most definitely not I was wondering if you could watch me play and give me some tips on areas I could improve and mistakes that I am making.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]I can do that but the problem is that I'm never sure when I'm online or if I'm able to spectate a game. The best option would be to send a replay of your gameplay if you have one recorded.[/quote]

[quote=cocfight][quote=Joxuu]I can do that but the problem is that I'm never sure when I'm online or if I'm able to spectate a game. The best option would be to send a replay of your gameplay if you have one recorded.[/quote] Alright I captured a game this morning and am currently uploading it. I will post it here soon so you can take a look. (you can watch the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z85WeKxh6po&feature=youtu.be)[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]I will take a look at it and post the conclusion here. Probably today or during the weekend. I have things but I'll post it when I can.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]Probably contains spelling mistakes but bear with me :> [spoiler=the video review]Before I start, I'd like to mention that there will be lot's of nitpicking and small things listed. Even if the list gets huge, it doesn't mean you are terrible player or terrible ADC. These are pretty common mistakes that can be easily fixed. There were lot's of positive things but I'll focus on the things that could have been done better in my opinion. I can also list the positive things later if you like. - It seemed to me that you were going for fast level 2, which is correct but you sort of gave the advantage away by freezing the lane. - I think you gave too much respect for the enemy AD and therefore missed lot's of potential free poking opportunities (2:30, 2:43) - I'm not sure if you were premade with the [[sona]] but you should try to position yourself or ask [[sona]] to position relatively to your positioning. There were many situations where either [[sona]] or you went alone to poke against 1v2. - I'd keep the enemy bot lane brush warded 24/7 if possible. - I'd also value minions little bit more. You did a decent job farming but overall you could do little bit better. Less than 200 minions in 30 minutes is not the best case scenario. You traded quite a bit of poke for the exchange of losing minions. Especially on a hyper carry, I would value 1 minion > 1 auto attack of poke. - (4:46) death is soloely cus of lack of vision in the bot lane brush that should be warded. I'm pretty sure you could have killed [[kalista]] there 1v2 because the [[heal]] was used earlier but you couldn't because you didn't have vision of the [[morgana]] or if [[volibear]] had left the lane. - Last hitting under a tower is really important thing to learn. You did OK but there is place for improvement. - (8:52) small fight there ended up being good for you and you defended [[sona]] well but I'd be careful when initiating on a [[support]] without 100% confirmed ability to execute the kill fast. The enemy champion was [[kalista]] who didn't really have answer to your initiation but if the champion was [[graves]] for example, things could have gone differently. - I see where you are going with the 10:20 initiation which also ended up being good for you. The thing is that you didn't have minion wave pushing against the tower, so there was no real possibility to go dive there. [[morgana]] mispositioned though and you punished her for that. Second thing is that you don't have vision of the enemy jungler at that point. You do see [[volibear]] top later on so you know you're safe but at the moment of the initiation, there was no vision of [[volibear]]'s location. - (13:50) was really good for you. You took little bit too much distance from the [[sona]] at the time of [[xerath]] ultimating and you missed couple of crucial auto attack on [[xerath]], like the 3rd AA to proc W passive. Other than that, it was a nice fight. The stun against the wall won you the fight. - Charging in with [[tumble]] in team fights is often a really bad idea unless you are chasing someone who can't fight back. The best usage would be to reset your auto attack timing and sidestepping with it. In that fight you use it and take [[xerath]] Q to the face. It didn't really matter at that point anyways but using a auto attack and immediatly tumbling after to use another AA and potentially dodge an ability is really good usage of the ability. (It's really hard though. Most of the high elo players can't do it either) - (17:15) fight, I'd probably saved ultimate but at least botrk active should have been saved. You couldn't know [[volibear]] was there though (you often want to know where enemy jungler is when you initiate.) The [[flash]] was questionable. I think you tried to knock [[kalista]] back a little but you missed ~2 auto attacks in the process. Not having the E knock back, [[volibear]] could just chase you out. I don't think it would have mattered but using attack move + distancing yourself a little bit more from the [[volibear]] by kiting with [[tumble]] from the beginning would've been good. - (19:15) is a case of using [[tumble]] straight to the face of potentially really dangerous [[ryze]] but he seemed to ignore you so it was fine. You forgot to use botrk active but not sure if it would've made difference. Always try to use it during a team fight. - Around ~(21:00), I would have probably gone to the mid lane to push for an objective instead of bot lane farm. It was maybe a little bit more team based miscall because you lost tower but I think mid tower was obtainable if you had gone there. - (22:10) you go way before your team and you don't get the ultimate stealth fast enough to escape the situation. I think it was sort of underestimating the enemy bot lane. Enemy [[ryze]] appearing there was quite unexpected but you were too deep by yourself. - (26:18) you use the tumble too offensively again and you're alone in that situation so the enemy could just kill you for free. - You should try to clear the bot lane whenever you can. Enemy minions were pushing against your towers for a really long time. - (29:00) you should have usen the wall stun against the dragon wall on [[volibear]], stopping the initiation so you can escape or then try to turn on the [[kalista]]. - (33:20) was wasted ulti as [[volibear]] was confirmed to be dead anyways. This caused you to not have it up in the next fight. - (34:35) fight you were not taking advantage of your range too much and I think you should have gone for a defensive item at that point. You had damage but you weren't able to use it due the fear of getting caught in CC. - For rest of the game you take a little bit too much distance from the enemies. This leads back to the lack of defensive item. The enemies were quite fed at that point to be honest and you didn't really have anyone covering for you. - (43:00) is getting caught due bad position. You could ahve survived with earlier E or botrk on [[volibear]] but there was no real reason to be in the jungle. Overall it was not too shabby. I'd really be careful with positioning. Means not getting too much distance to the point where you can't do anything but mostly the really aggressive [[tumble]] charges into a bad fight where you're potentially alone were bad. That gave away at least 2 crucial team fights. Your [[sona]] was the cause of many misfortunes and wasn't really a reliable support to protect you. Your team was kinda meh for the late game anyways. [/spoiler][/quote]

[quote=cocfight][quote=Joxuu]Probably contains spelling mistakes but bear with me :> [spoiler=the video review]Before I start, I'd like to mention that there will be lot's of nitpicking and small things listed. Even if the list gets huge, it doesn't mean you are terrible player or terrible ADC. These are pretty common mistakes that can be easily fixed. There were lot's of positive things but I'll focus on the things that could have been done better in my opinion. I can also list the positive things later if you like. - It seemed to me that you were going for fast level 2, which is correct but you sort of gave the advantage away by freezing the lane. - I think you gave too much respect for the enemy AD and therefore missed lot's of potential free poking opportunities (2:30, 2:43) - I'm not sure if you were premade with the [[sona]] but you should try to position yourself or ask [[sona]] to position relatively to your positioning. There were many situations where either [[sona]] or you went alone to poke against 1v2. - I'd keep the enemy bot lane brush warded 24/7 if possible. - I'd also value minions little bit more. You did a decent job farming but overall you could do little bit better. Less than 200 minions in 30 minutes is not the best case scenario. You traded quite a bit of poke for the exchange of losing minions. Especially on a hyper carry, I would value 1 minion > 1 auto attack of poke. - (4:46) death is soloely cus of lack of vision in the bot lane brush that should be warded. I'm pretty sure you could have killed [[kalista]] there 1v2 because the [[heal]] was used earlier but you couldn't because you didn't have vision of the [[morgana]] or if [[volibear]] had left the lane. - Last hitting under a tower is really important thing to learn. You did OK but there is place for improvement. - (8:52) small fight there ended up being good for you and you defended [[sona]] well but I'd be careful when initiating on a [[support]] without 100% confirmed ability to execute the kill fast. The enemy champion was [[kalista]] who didn't really have answer to your initiation but if the champion was [[graves]] for example, things could have gone differently. - I see where you are going with the 10:20 initiation which also ended up being good for you. The thing is that you didn't have minion wave pushing against the tower, so there was no real possibility to go dive there. [[morgana]] mispositioned though and you punished her for that. Second thing is that you don't have vision of the enemy jungler at that point. You do see [[volibear]] top later on so you know you're safe but at the moment of the initiation, there was no vision of [[volibear]]'s location. - (13:50) was really good for you. You took little bit too much distance from the [[sona]] at the time of [[xerath]] ultimating and you missed couple of crucial auto attack on [[xerath]], like the 3rd AA to proc W passive. Other than that, it was a nice fight. The stun against the wall won you the fight. - Charging in with [[tumble]] in team fights is often a really bad idea unless you are chasing someone who can't fight back. The best usage would be to reset your auto attack timing and sidestepping with it. In that fight you use it and take [[xerath]] Q to the face. It didn't really matter at that point anyways but using a auto attack and immediatly tumbling after to use another AA and potentially dodge an ability is really good usage of the ability. (It's really hard though. Most of the high elo players can't do it either) - (17:15) fight, I'd probably saved ultimate but at least botrk active should have been saved. You couldn't know [[volibear]] was there though (you often want to know where enemy jungler is when you initiate.) The [[flash]] was questionable. I think you tried to knock [[kalista]] back a little but you missed ~2 auto attacks in the process. Not having the E knock back, [[volibear]] could just chase you out. I don't think it would have mattered but using attack move + distancing yourself a little bit more from the [[volibear]] by kiting with [[tumble]] from the beginning would've been good. - (19:15) is a case of using [[tumble]] straight to the face of potentially really dangerous [[ryze]] but he seemed to ignore you so it was fine. You forgot to use botrk active but not sure if it would've made difference. Always try to use it during a team fight. - Around ~(21:00), I would have probably gone to the mid lane to push for an objective instead of bot lane farm. It was maybe a little bit more team based miscall because you lost tower but I think mid tower was obtainable if you had gone there. - (22:10) you go way before your team and you don't get the ultimate stealth fast enough to escape the situation. I think it was sort of underestimating the enemy bot lane. Enemy [[ryze]] appearing there was quite unexpected but you were too deep by yourself. - (26:18) you use the tumble too offensively again and you're alone in that situation so the enemy could just kill you for free. - You should try to clear the bot lane whenever you can. Enemy minions were pushing against your towers for a really long time. - (29:00) you should have usen the wall stun against the dragon wall on [[volibear]], stopping the initiation so you can escape or then try to turn on the [[kalista]]. - (33:20) was wasted ulti as [[volibear]] was confirmed to be dead anyways. This caused you to not have it up in the next fight. - (34:35) fight you were not taking advantage of your range too much and I think you should have gone for a defensive item at that point. You had damage but you weren't able to use it due the fear of getting caught in CC. - For rest of the game you take a little bit too much distance from the enemies. This leads back to the lack of defensive item. The enemies were quite fed at that point to be honest and you didn't really have anyone covering for you. - (43:00) is getting caught due bad position. You could ahve survived with earlier E or botrk on [[volibear]] but there was no real reason to be in the jungle. Overall it was not too shabby. I'd really be careful with positioning. Means not getting too much distance to the point where you can't do anything but mostly the really aggressive [[tumble]] charges into a bad fight where you're potentially alone were bad. That gave away at least 2 crucial team fights. Your [[sona]] was the cause of many misfortunes and wasn't really a reliable support to protect you. Your team was kinda meh for the late game anyways. [/spoiler][/quote] First off, thanks for taking the time to review the video and giving feedback. However, I do have some follow up questions -Should I be spending money on wards in lane if my support is doing a poor job of keeping vision? This could potentially put me behind the enemy ADC in items in lane. -I was not premade with the [[Sona]] and not to play the blame game but I did not find her to be very good. If my support is not coordinated with me and going for harass when I know I need to take a cs what should i do? -I agree my csing was quite poor that game and for some reason my csing on [[Vayne]] is not good when I haven't been playing her a ton (probably the low attack damage). -At (4:46) I had some suspicions that [[Volibear]] was still in lane and camping in that bush which is why I was playing farther back. Clearly [[Sona]] wasn't on the same page as me, I tried to ping but it was too late. What can I do in that situation as the ADC to avoid [[Sona]] getting caught out in a 1v3 like that? -At (13:50) I didn't even want to take that fight. I saw the [[Xerath]] coming down from mid and didn't want to fight a 3v2 so I back off to tower. For some reason [[Sona]] stayed pushed up and got caught so I defended her (which is why we were so far apart). Luckily I got that stun on [[Kalista]] off of her jump or that could have been ugly. Should I just follow my supports lead no matter the situation or should I just leave a bad positioned support to die? -At (17:15) I messed that engage up pretty bad. I shouldn't have used everything to get the pick on [[Morgana]] but I also had no idea that the [[Volibear]] was there. The [[Flash]] was stupid on my part, I though [[Kalista]] was close enough to the wall for the stun but she wasn't. I also probably could have killed her without the flash. If there was a tri-brush ward we would have known the [[Volibear]] was there. Regardless, I should have saved either [[Condemn]] or BOTRK for kiting the [[Volibear]]. -At (19:15) I saw that [[Ryze]] had used [[Rune Prison]] on [[Sona]] so I figured we was not longer as big of a threat. Should I still not try to aggresivly pick him off with his [[Rune Prison]] down? Also should I use BOTRK even when I don't need it? The [[Volibear]] was MIA and it could have really helped if he showed up in that fight. -At (21:00) I will be the first to admit that I struggle with making good team based decisions in the mid game when my team is losing with poor vision control. I get flashbacks of going mid and getting 5 man tower dove or getting picked off in the river(just kidding but seriously). Also, [[Dragon]] was up at this point, would it have been better to take [[Dragon]] or mid tower? -(22:10) was stupid on my part. I figured we were grouping for dragon but only half of my team did. Then I figured if I got a pick on the seemingly out of position [[Kalista]] we could get an easy [[Dragon]]. I didn't know that their whole team was going to [[Dragon]] but regardless it was a miss play by me. -(26:18) another miss play by me. A lot of the time when I see that my team is just slowly bleeding out and losing the game I try to go for a play to turn the game. This was a really bad idea but what should I be doing if I see my team slowly losing the game by giving up all the objectives for free? -(29:00) I agree I could have played that better but I don't think we can ignore the fact that [[Sona]] completely missed be ult and then got blown up in half a second. Also I realize that [[Nidalee]] is mostly a poke champion but I feel like she could have done more to help me out in that situation. -(33:20) I agree this was a dumb waste of ult. At this point I was on tilt a bit which is an issue I am also trying to work on (if you have any tips please let me know). -(34:35) I agree that I should have started to go for a [[Banshee's Veil]] instead of going for an [[Infinity Edge]] at this point. I don't think I would have been able to complete the item by this point and with the amount of cc their team was packing I am not sure it would have turned the fight but I would have had a better chance. I agree with you that I have an problem with using [[Tumble]] too aggressively and I need to work on that. What should I do as an ADC when my team lacks engage or seems unwilling to pull the trigger on a potentially out of position enemy. I realize that I should not be doing this but if no one else is willing to do it then what. Also my csing in that game what quite poor even for me and I am always working on that. I did give to much respect to the enemy bot lane but I have found that one good [[Morgana]] Q can win or lose a lane so I am always hesitant against [[Morgana]], I will work on this.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu][quote=cocfight] -Should I be spending money on wards in lane if my support is doing a poor job of keeping vision? This could potentially put me behind the enemy ADC in items in lane. [color=#00ff00]// Not really ideal situation. If your support can't afford a ward, you can always buy one. Buying a pink ward now and then is adviced when you have 100 extra gold laying around. Preferably support always has enough ward coverage. Using your totem should be enough. You hung to it a bit too long during laning phase.[/color] -I was not premade with the [[Sona]] and not to play the blame game but I did not find her to be very good. If my support is not coordinated with me and going for harass when I know I need to take a cs what should i do? [color=#00ff00]// You can't really if you're farming. You can try to follow the actions but using retreat pings or saying you want to go for the cs should do it.[/color] -I agree my csing was quite poor that game and for some reason my csing on [[Vayne]] is not good when I haven't been playing her a ton (probably the low attack damage). -At (4:46) I had some suspicions that [[Volibear]] was still in lane and camping in that bush which is why I was playing farther back. Clearly [[Sona]] wasn't on the same page as me, I tried to ping but it was too late. What can I do in that situation as the ADC to avoid [[Sona]] getting caught out in a 1v3 like that? [color=#00ff00]// There is nothing you can do if the support gets caught like that. You can stop it from happening though by having ward coverage. Totem ward on the second brush earlier would've saved the death.[/color] -At (13:50) I didn't even want to take that fight. I saw the [[Xerath]] coming down from mid and didn't want to fight a 3v2 so I back off to tower. For some reason [[Sona]] stayed pushed up and got caught so I defended her (which is why we were so far apart). Luckily I got that stun on [[Kalista]] off of her jump or that could have been ugly. Should I just follow my supports lead no matter the situation or should I just leave a bad positioned support to die? [color=#00ff00]// During a team fight, it's better if everyone follows a bad call rather than only half committing to it. Bad call can turn out to be good or at least less worse in the bad. There are some limits to this like it's no point following a support tower diving in lv3.[/color] -At (17:15) I messed that engage up pretty bad. I shouldn't have used everything to get the pick on [[Morgana]] but I also had no idea that the [[Volibear]] was there. The [[Flash]] was stupid on my part, I though [[Kalista]] was close enough to the wall for the stun but she wasn't. I also probably could have killed her without the flash. If there was a tri-brush ward we would have known the [[Volibear]] was there. Regardless, I should have saved either [[Condemn]] or BOTRK for kiting the [[Volibear]]. -At (19:15) I saw that [[Ryze]] had used [[Rune Prison]] on [[Sona]] so I figured we was not longer as big of a threat. Should I still not try to aggresivly pick him off with his [[Rune Prison]] down? Also should I use BOTRK even when I don't need it? The [[Volibear]] was MIA and it could have really helped if he showed up in that fight. [color=#00ff00]// I think he was going after you or at least should have gone after you. It may be the case that he just greeded for the [[sona]] kill but usually it's really bad to charge towards a bruiser that has the potential to kill you. Botrk should always be used in a team fight because you most likely won't need it later. You can save it in solo kills if it's a confirmed kill. Using the botrk bad is always better than not using it though.[/color] -At (21:00) I will be the first to admit that I struggle with making good team based decisions in the mid game when my team is losing with poor vision control. I get flashbacks of going mid and getting 5 man tower dove or getting picked off in the river(just kidding but seriously). Also, [[Dragon]] was up at this point, would it have been better to take [[Dragon]] or mid tower? [b]// I value towers more than [[dragon]] at the moment. The first buff of [[dragon]] is really strong but since you had that, I'd say mid tower was the right decision as the enemy couldn't counter it by getting the [[dragon]] anyways.[/b] -(22:10) was stupid on my part. I figured we were grouping for dragon but only half of my team did. Then I figured if I got a pick on the seemingly out of position [[Kalista]] we could get an easy [[Dragon]]. I didn't know that their whole team was going to [[Dragon]] but regardless it was a miss play by me. -(26:18) another miss play by me. A lot of the time when I see that my team is just slowly bleeding out and losing the game I try to go for a play to turn the game. This was a really bad idea but what should I be doing if I see my team slowly losing the game by giving up all the objectives for free? [color=#00ff00]// You can't really do much alone if your team is not grouping. Using pings and communicating with allies is highly recommended but like in that situation, you were pretty much alone so backing off would've been better.[/color] -(29:00) I agree I could have played that better but I don't think we can ignore the fact that [[Sona]] completely missed be ult and then got blown up in half a second. Also I realize that [[Nidalee]] is mostly a poke champion but I feel like she could have done more to help me out in that situation. -(33:20) I agree this was a dumb waste of ult. At this point I was on tilt a bit which is an issue I am also trying to work on (if you have any tips please let me know). -(34:35) I agree that I should have started to go for a [[Banshee's Veil]] instead of going for an [[Infinity Edge]] at this point. I don't think I would have been able to complete the item by this point and with the amount of cc their team was packing I am not sure it would have turned the fight but I would have had a better chance. I agree with you that I have an problem with using [[Tumble]] too aggressively and I need to work on that. What should I do as an ADC when my team lacks engage or seems unwilling to pull the trigger on a potentially out of position enemy. I realize that I should not be doing this but if no one else is willing to do it then what. Also my csing in that game what quite poor even for me and I am always working on that. I did give to much respect to the enemy bot lane but I have found that one good [[Morgana]] Q can win or lose a lane so I am always hesitant against [[Morgana]], I will work on this. [color=#00ff00]// Good luck with the possible S5 climb.[/color][/quote][/quote]