http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/browse?threshold=featured
For those who thought the current featured guides would be bad.
For those who thought the current featured guides would be bad.
jhoijhoi wrote:
Well yeah... try it yourself. If you put one hand over your head, now your hand is over your head. And if you put one hand over your other hand, then that hand is on top. So, quite literally, one cannot get over themselves... didn't think I had to explain it, but k ^^
Get over yourself.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
Wow.
This is like watching to giants fight.
But one of the giants are trying to hard, and the other don't care :D
This is like watching to giants fight.
But one of the giants are trying to hard, and the other don't care :D
Thanks to me and Elleeeeeka (love that name) for my sigs.
If i made a helpful comment on your guide/build, then hit that +rep button. or don't, its not like i care.
ALL HAIL QUEEN CHRYSALIS!
Xenasis
<Member>
<Member>
jhoijhoi wrote:
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/browse?threshold=featured
For those who thought the current featured guides would be bad.
I didn't say they would be bad, just that it's likely a lot of the ones to come will be.
jhoijhoi wrote:
If I could give you access to the scout forums, I would. If only you could see what we're doing. When someone makes a nomination, the guide is scrutinised. I nominated a Janna guide with Boots of Mobility and everyone jumped on that one item. Even though I liked the guide, it doesn't mean everyone else did. Thus, even if I did scout that guide, no one else would, leading to nothing. At the moment, you have to have a large amount of scout points in order to promote a guide to featured. Even if every single scout was a ******, the chances of a bad guide being featured is really low.
I'll just ask Winter some time. He can tell me all about the scout forums. Exactly, though, as you said, "Even though I liked the guide, it doesn't mean everyone else did. Thus, even if I did scout that guide, no one else would, leading to nothing.". The fact that we need a large amount of scouts to rec something means that only guides that are already high up will be featured - the reason guides are low is because they have "something wrong". It will lead to nothing, as you've said.
And of course, if you lowered the amount, idiots could scout stuff unchecked. It's flawed as it is at the moment.
Quoted:
Actually, I'm one of the only scouts at the moment who is nominating "top" guides. Other scouts like Mowen and Trojan and Lugi are going out of their way to have a look at the guides that are not in the top three and nominating them. I nominate some of the top guides, like the top Cass guide, because I genuinely think it's the best, whereas they may have a look at the next page and find a better build or whatever. You really just need to see the forum to understand how it works.
Makes sense, but still, comparing a bunch of guides will still result in one being chosen over the others, and there's no guarantee that's the best one.
Quoted:
Er... this is what everyone does when they say, "I won't upvote just yet because of etc etc etc". We're not bribing. For example, with regards to my Ashe guide, Mowen, Jebus and Trojan said they wouldn't scout it until: Wriggles had been added, Attack Speed Glyphs added and Cleanse description has changed. All reasonable ideas. What's wrong with me adding these and improving my guide?
Quoted:
... why would anyone nominate a guide with Tiamat Soraka?
Was an example. If they have a bad item, you said "If they explained it", or something along those lines, you'd give them a scout point. You can explain anything, but it doesn't mean it's good. If someone nominates a guide that starts with a Doran's Ring on Malz (random off the top of my head example of someone who should always start with boots when mid), for example, the guide creator explaining reasoning for Doran's Ring doesn't make it superior.
Quoted:
And immediately you're making another rank that people will dislike. By adding more ranks, people seem to be even more annoyed with the system. It's as if it'd be better with no "featured" system at all. How are you going to prove you're 2000 elo? Why would anyone want to be on MobaFire if they're 2000 elo?
Since when did people dislike ranks? I didn't say make a new one anyway, I feel the Scout rank isn't working as it should, and elaborated upon that. I didn't say 2000 elo specifically, it was an example - it might be 1700, 1800, I don't know, but high. You can prove it by certain trusted vets checking their profiles in game and confirming with them, for example. Since you might only have 5 or so, and it could work similar to the old Vet Rec system.
The reason featured guides are required is because without them, guides that are bad stay top, guides that are good never get there. Mobafire has a reputation for having terrible guides (and rightly so), you can see from the top rated guides of a LOT of champions that they really shouldn't be there, but they are. If a top rated guide doesn't have a pro recommendation but the one below it does, people would look at that one instead.
Mobafire is notorious for it's bad guides. DuffTime mentioned it once on the NA forums, and we all saw the results of that. As a member of Mobafire's community, I'd like to change that, for everyone's benefit. We really shouldn't stand by and let it happen.
Quoted:
And what would be the criteria? 2000 elo, 500 won ranked games? We've discussed "Pro Recs" and there were too many flaws.
A simple check nowadays would be platinum in season 1, for example. Easy to do check, a set standard, and there would be no deviation, etc. I really can't see many flaws - especially when matched up with the Scout system.
I realise you thoroughly go through each champion in the Scout forum, but that doesn't mean ANY of you are good enough to say if a guide is "good" or not. Pretty pictures and verbosity or "explained" rather than good items doesn't make a guide good. I might not be, either; shouldn't we leave it to the people who know what they're talking about?
I agree with the sentiment Xenasis, really do.
I feel like this whole rework of the system has been at least a step in the right direction, don't you?
I feel like this whole rework of the system has been at least a step in the right direction, don't you?
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
Xenasis
<Member>
<Member>
Yeah. I said last page or so that this was a step in the right direction.
A small one, but it was still a step there.
I feel with some constructive criticism, the system can find a happy resting place or be greatly improved.
Though it's an improvement, there's no point saying "THIS IS THE BEST THING ON THE EARTH". Coating stuff in sugar doesn't get anybody anywhere.
A small one, but it was still a step there.
I feel with some constructive criticism, the system can find a happy resting place or be greatly improved.
Though it's an improvement, there's no point saying "THIS IS THE BEST THING ON THE EARTH". Coating stuff in sugar doesn't get anybody anywhere.
Xen, I feel as if you're basically saying that Scouts can't be trusted to reach a decision amongst them about viable guides. I don't quite understand why you think any one of us would scout a Tiamat Soraka guide and then 6+ of us will do the same so the guide becomes featured.
Even if you don't think we don't have the knowledge to decide whether a guide is good enough, that's simply not true. Most of us have written a guide too. So are you saying we shouldn't write guides, because we don't know enough about the champion to do so?
Should we not vote on guides because we don't know enough to do so?
It all comes down to this belief of yours that you seem to uphold - that scouts can't be trusted.
Sure, not all scouts or MobaFire users will know the ins and outs of every champion. As such, I haven't nominated a Fiddlesticks guide or went out of my way to learn Shyvana so I could nominate one of those guides. I only scout guides for champions I have played and know about. I haven't seen Wrath nominate a Soraka guide (I've never seen him support, ever), I haven't seen Wayne nominate a Shaco guide. Lugi is nominating Maokai and Karma guides, Trojan is nominating Ashe and Tristana guides.
We're not randomly going around and scouting poor guides. Send a quick PM to Matt and ask which current guides have scout points. And if you disagree with any of those scouted guides, create a new thread and detail why.
Do you have a problem with the current scouted guides? Do you feel as if the scouts who gave them points did the wrong thing?
Even if you don't think we don't have the knowledge to decide whether a guide is good enough, that's simply not true. Most of us have written a guide too. So are you saying we shouldn't write guides, because we don't know enough about the champion to do so?
Should we not vote on guides because we don't know enough to do so?
It all comes down to this belief of yours that you seem to uphold - that scouts can't be trusted.
Sure, not all scouts or MobaFire users will know the ins and outs of every champion. As such, I haven't nominated a Fiddlesticks guide or went out of my way to learn Shyvana so I could nominate one of those guides. I only scout guides for champions I have played and know about. I haven't seen Wrath nominate a Soraka guide (I've never seen him support, ever), I haven't seen Wayne nominate a Shaco guide. Lugi is nominating Maokai and Karma guides, Trojan is nominating Ashe and Tristana guides.
We're not randomly going around and scouting poor guides. Send a quick PM to Matt and ask which current guides have scout points. And if you disagree with any of those scouted guides, create a new thread and detail why.
Do you have a problem with the current scouted guides? Do you feel as if the scouts who gave them points did the wrong thing?
Since this thread has erupted into three different complicated arguments at once, I'll try to keep my post very brief and respond to a couple things out of the last 2 or 3 pages.
It would certainly help to recommend it, though it will still barely, barely help it. I applaud people like Jhoi for making such threads for the community. It's a step forward, however small it may be.
If I recall correctly, one of the problems with the old rec system was that the vets had way too much power. Any guide that was featured by only a single person received a ton of extra attention and usually upvotes, especially if the guide was of high quality already. Now it seems you have no faith that featured guides will receive any extra attention at all. I think the new system has just as much power as it once did, but now that power is in the hands of a group of people, instead of a biased individual.
I think you're creating a problem where none exists. Writers of good guides IN GENERAL are much more active on the site than the rest of the community. Some people become popular because of their guides. Some people are simply very active, and thus receive more views on their guides than members who haven't even posted on the forums. I don't see popularity as a problem related to the scoring system at all.
You make scouts sound so petty. We're not dangling the reward of a feature any more than a critical commenter dangles the reward of a vote. Don't you want good guides to be scouted? If the author makes their guide into a good one, they get featured. That doesn't sound like bribery to me.
This really is the heart of most of your arguments. I don't believe that skill is necessary to make accurate judgments of a guide at all. If that's true, none of the judgments you've made about other guides are valid, nor are mine or anyone else's except professional players. That means that when you say that Udyr guide deserved a high score, your opinion doesn't matter because you're not 2500 elo. That means that when Duff nominates a Ryze guide for recommendation, he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's not 2500 elo. This is obviously not true, because there are a good number of people on this site who do know what they're talking about, and none of them are 2k elo.
What is necessary to recommend guides? Knowledge. You base your judgments about builds and guides based on your knowledge of the game and the knowledge you glean from other people, including professional players. Judging the viability of a build has nothing at all to do with skill. It's probably true that almost all 2k+ elo players have a very good understanding of the game. This does not mean that you need to have their level of skill to have their level of knowledge. I can tell you to max Q on Caitlyn without being flawless at last-hitting. I can tell you how to build Yorick without being the best Yorick player in the world. The argument that only high-elo players know anything and everyone else is ignorant is simply not true. It's true that most high-elo players are likely knowledgeable, but not all knowledgeable players are high-elo.
Now unfortunately, Rep isn't an accurate measurement of knowledge or skill. I would prefer that we have some sort of system that rewards effort with Editor, game knowledge with Scout and integrity with Veteran. I haven't a clue how this could be done, but for the moment the Rep system isn't too bad.
EDIT: Okay, I said "very brief" and it wasn't, but I've already deleted like 5 paragraphs I wrote so this'll have to do.
Xenasis wrote:
It would certainly help to recommend it, though it will still barely, barely help it. I applaud people like Jhoi for making such threads for the community. It's a step forward, however small it may be.
If I recall correctly, one of the problems with the old rec system was that the vets had way too much power. Any guide that was featured by only a single person received a ton of extra attention and usually upvotes, especially if the guide was of high quality already. Now it seems you have no faith that featured guides will receive any extra attention at all. I think the new system has just as much power as it once did, but now that power is in the hands of a group of people, instead of a biased individual.
Nighthawk wrote:
Looking at the top rated guides I see about 5 that aren't from 'popular' people on Mobafire.
I think you're creating a problem where none exists. Writers of good guides IN GENERAL are much more active on the site than the rest of the community. Some people become popular because of their guides. Some people are simply very active, and thus receive more views on their guides than members who haven't even posted on the forums. I don't see popularity as a problem related to the scoring system at all.
Xenasis wrote:
bribing people to change their guides with points seems silly.
You make scouts sound so petty. We're not dangling the reward of a feature any more than a critical commenter dangles the reward of a vote. Don't you want good guides to be scouted? If the author makes their guide into a good one, they get featured. That doesn't sound like bribery to me.
Xenasis wrote:
As I say (and have said), I'd like a system that's somewhat related to skill.
This really is the heart of most of your arguments. I don't believe that skill is necessary to make accurate judgments of a guide at all. If that's true, none of the judgments you've made about other guides are valid, nor are mine or anyone else's except professional players. That means that when you say that Udyr guide deserved a high score, your opinion doesn't matter because you're not 2500 elo. That means that when Duff nominates a Ryze guide for recommendation, he doesn't know what he's talking about because he's not 2500 elo. This is obviously not true, because there are a good number of people on this site who do know what they're talking about, and none of them are 2k elo.
What is necessary to recommend guides? Knowledge. You base your judgments about builds and guides based on your knowledge of the game and the knowledge you glean from other people, including professional players. Judging the viability of a build has nothing at all to do with skill. It's probably true that almost all 2k+ elo players have a very good understanding of the game. This does not mean that you need to have their level of skill to have their level of knowledge. I can tell you to max Q on Caitlyn without being flawless at last-hitting. I can tell you how to build Yorick without being the best Yorick player in the world. The argument that only high-elo players know anything and everyone else is ignorant is simply not true. It's true that most high-elo players are likely knowledgeable, but not all knowledgeable players are high-elo.
Now unfortunately, Rep isn't an accurate measurement of knowledge or skill. I would prefer that we have some sort of system that rewards effort with Editor, game knowledge with Scout and integrity with Veteran. I haven't a clue how this could be done, but for the moment the Rep system isn't too bad.
EDIT: Okay, I said "very brief" and it wasn't, but I've already deleted like 5 paragraphs I wrote so this'll have to do.
Thanks to Jovy for the sig!
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Really? If the is then there should be bigger effort in advertising them just as vet recommendations worked.
The fact that scouts not handing out points and it being broken wasn't my point, I didn't say it was unfair, just it still didn't present an accurate view of a good guide. You don't need skill to be a scout, and as such, anybody can scout point anything.
If I could give you access to the scout forums, I would. If only you could see what we're doing. When someone makes a nomination, the guide is scrutinised. I nominated a Janna guide with Boots of Mobility and everyone jumped on that one item. Even though I liked the guide, it doesn't mean everyone else did. Thus, even if I did scout that guide, no one else would, leading to nothing. At the moment, you have to have a large amount of scout points in order to promote a guide to featured. Even if every single scout was a ******, the chances of a bad guide being featured is really low.
Actually, I'm one of the only scouts at the moment who is nominating "top" guides. Other scouts like Mowen and Trojan and Lugi are going out of their way to have a look at the guides that are not in the top three and nominating them. I nominate some of the top guides, like the top Cass guide, because I genuinely think it's the best, whereas they may have a look at the next page and find a better build or whatever. You really just need to see the forum to understand how it works.
Er... this is what everyone does when they say, "I won't upvote just yet because of etc etc etc". We're not bribing. For example, with regards to my Ashe guide, Mowen, Jebus and Trojan said they wouldn't scout it until: Wriggles had been added, Attack Speed Glyphs added and Cleanse description has changed. All reasonable ideas. What's wrong with me adding these and improving my guide?
... why would anyone nominate a guide with Tiamat Soraka?
And immediately you're making another rank that people will dislike. By adding more ranks, people seem to be even more annoyed with the system. It's as if it'd be better with no "featured" system at all. How are you going to prove you're 2000 elo? Why would anyone want to be on MobaFire if they're 2000 elo?
And what would be the criteria? 2000 elo, 500 won ranked games? We've discussed "Pro Recs" and there were too many flaws.
Well yeah... try it yourself. If you put one hand over your head, now your hand is over your head. And if you put one hand over your other hand, then that hand is on top. So, quite literally, one cannot get over themselves... didn't think I had to explain it, but k ^^