Singed OP?

[quote=DuffTime]Catalyst is only core on Singed because everyone in the world is a sheep and doesn't know what Philosopher's stone / Giant's belt is.[/quote]

[quote=EvilDice]My goodness people. Can we agree? Because we are all onto the same thing here. What makes singed a tank? - Passive health scaling. Allows him to build resistances and gain health at the same time. - Fantastic separation ability in [[fling]]. Will force a flash to be burned at the very least and can also be used to save allies. - Strongest slow in the game, however it is ground based. Can be used to protect carries or chase enemies. - Optional perma-slow with rylai's. - Ultimate that gives [b]30%[/b] cc reduction, tons of stats, and allows him to initiate and force summoner spells to be blown. Lasts the entire teamfight. You guys really think it's just one thing? His entire kit screams, "I'm an initiator!" "I run through cc!" "I have 4k health 200 mr and 200 armor, and I do damage!". Think.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Right, it's not just one thing, but people are making claims that his passive is the only thing that makes him a tank which is not only just flat out not true, but not even the biggest reason he's a tank. Any one of his skills makes him more capable of tanking than his passive. His passive is the smallest reason he can tank about his entire kit.[/quote]

[quote=theBMB]^uh no, Jun was the only one who said that, and even then he still pointed out his other tank like qualities[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]His [[Empowered Bulwark]] is the reason why [[catalyst the protector]]>[[Philosopher's stone]].([[Strength of Spirit]], too)[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=NicknameMy] His [[Empowered Bulwark]] is the reason why [[catalyst the protector]]>[[Philosopher's stone]].([[Strength of Spirit]], too) [/quote] This. Also, DuffTime, I don't think you realize how much health his passive really gives. At level 18 with a fully stacked [[rod of ages]], he gets 437.5 health from his passive [b]alone[/b] (factoring in base mana too). That's more health than a [[giant's belt]]. Add in the health from RoA and you've got yourself more than enough health to function for the entirety of the game (though resistances still need to be bought). To top it all off, singed gets loads of mana to deal more damage from [[rod of ages]]. 231 health from [[empowered bulwark]] + [[rod of ages]] mana is not to be underestimated; it's equivalent to a free [[phage]] (minus the AD and proc, of course). Basically, you're TOTALLY underestimating the fantastic stat->stat conversion you get from buying [[rod of ages]].[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Don't factor base mana. Only factor what RoA gives him when calculating RoA's benefits. I know what RoA does for him. Buy a Warmogg's if you want HP. Buy Rylai's if you want HP and AP. Buy Frozen Heart if you want Mana. 231 HP is great, but you're not buying an RoA just to get 231 bonus HP I hope? That's buying a whole item just to get a bonus ruby crystal. I'm not under estimating anything at all. Catalyst is a fantastic item for laning phase, but it doesn't build into any of Singed's best items in a 5v5 game, according to me. So I buy a Philo and a Giant's belt and guess what? Singed is still impossible to get out of the lane! Who would have known!? I think you guys who support RoA may simply be underestimating what a real full tank build on Singed feels like. Either that or your opponents are too bad to deal enough damage to require a full tank build. Either option is entirely plausible.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]However, in 3v3's where you need all members to deal damage, as I mentioned, I build 2 of them on him. It's not like I don't know what the item brings to the table.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=DuffTime] Don't factor base mana. Only factor what RoA gives him when calculating RoA's benefits. [/quote] My point is that the passive IS potent, and you seem to be arguing that it doesn't do a whole lot. [quote] Buy a Warmogg's if you want HP. [/quote] Not a great item in general (without atma's, at any rate), even worse when you consider that you can buy [[rod of ages]] and get all the health you need AND AP/mana. [quote] Buy Rylai's if you want HP and AP. [/quote] [img]http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/006/759/both.png?1314231146[/img] They both provide good things, but RoA is going to give you a BEASTLY mid-game, while Rylai's might leave you starving for mana. I can see a [[catalyst the protector]] - [[rylai's crystal scepter]] - [[rod of ages]] build working, but in that case I don't see why you don't just build RoA first for the early stacks. [quote] Buy Frozen Heart if you want Mana. [/quote] It's FAR more viable to get an early [[catalyst the protector]] in virtually all cases, whereas there's very few cases where an early [[glacial shroud]] is going to benefit you more than the cata. [quote]231 HP is great, but you're not buying an RoA just to get 231 bonus HP I hope? That's buying a whole item just to get a bonus ruby crystal. [/quote] No, it's buying a whole item to get all the stats that singed needs that's so incredibly cost-efficient because of his passive. [quote] I'm not under estimating anything at all. Catalyst is a fantastic item for laning phase, but it doesn't build into any of Singed's best items in a 5v5 game, according to me. [/quote] [[rod of ages]]. [quote] So I buy a Philo and a Giant's belt and guess what? Singed is still impossible to get out of the lane! Who would have known!?[/quote] NicknamedMy gave a great argument for why you shouldn't do this. [quote] I think you guys who support RoA may simply be underestimating what a real full tank build on Singed feels like. [/quote] I don't think you understand that RoA gives you the ability to deal MASSIVE amounts of damage without compromising your tanking ability. [quote] Either that or your opponents are too bad to deal enough damage to require a full tank build. Either option is entirely plausible. [/quote] Please keep this to theorycraft, and not back-handed insults.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]It's not an insult. You're probably not playing threatening enough opponents if you think you don't need full tank items and are playing the tank function. That's why RoA and Rylai's shouldn't both be purchased in 5v5, because you're sacrificing too much real tankiness for gimmicky items that enhance your passive. It allows you to deal more damage while compromising your tanking ability. It doesn't fulfill both roles. It's a soft tank item on Singed and a soft damage item, not a great damage item and not a great tanking item. I said according to me, and you responded with Rod of Ages. Derp. Warmogg's is the best HP item in the game, nothing even comes close. You don't understand tanking if you think it's not a great item. Frozen heart and Warmogg's is far more survivability than a RoA. That's my point. And you're missing it. Nicknamedmy also mentioned it only builds into Banshee's and RoA which are items I'm not building in 90% of my 5v5 matches with Singed. I already responded to this. You chose to ignore it. In summary, the passive is not easy to apply when building full tank items. If you want to sacrifice tankiness for damage, that's fine, it works mid game when you're a solo who's got more farm and levels than the rest of the team, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to be tanking hard end game crits from fully farmed ranged AD carries with RoA and Rylai's both taking up half your inventory along with your boots. That only leaves 3 spots for real tank items and it's just not enough. I'm going to just leave it at that, nothing else needs to be explained and I'm ebing forced to repeat points I've already made at this point.[/quote]