Which form is best?
Embracing wrote:
you dont have to get ad on tiger udyr lol...
seriously just go watch diamond or any pro jungler go tiger dorans udyr
first off, I feel like I have to remind you that doran's blade is an AD item...#datlogic
If Tiger Udyr doesn't need AD, let's assume you have no bonus AD at all (which is the way I run phoenix Udyr).
You gank at level 2. You get one auto attack after you stun the target before they can flash away.
Level 2 would put you at 56 AD (base is 52.9 + 3.2)
first auto attack upon activating the stance:
Tiger- 56 AD * 1.2 + 30 = 97 physical damage
unsure if the persistent passive gets added in...if so it's
(56 + 8) * 1.2 + 30 = 107 physical damage
Phoenix:- 56 AD + 40 + 15 (1 second of AoE, though at least 2 is more likely :P)= 111 mixed damage
The damage gets closer as your base AD goes up, but Phoenix out-bursts Tiger early game in the no AD war because its bases are better. :P
For Tiger, the 
Doran's Blade is sold later in the game, so in the end, Tiger Udyr actually does build pretty much no damage. In addition, you didn't calculate the increase in AS.
Hate to harp on about the same thing, but Diamondprox started off with D-Blade, got a First Blood double kill and then built only defensive items afterwards ( Runic Bulwark and Spirit of the Ancient Golem). The enemy still ran when they saw the Udyr coming.
In your maths, did you factor in runes or just base?
The fact that Phoenix is AoE also doesn't really matter all that much, since nobody will die to the AoE alone (15+25% AP every second for 5 seconds) and 2 out of the 3 lanes are solo lanes. His first attack in Phoenix deals a fair amount of mixed damage and then he gets a mixed damage proc every third attack.
On the other hand, Tiger deals additional damage every single hit instead of every 3rd hit.
If we're talking about ganks, it's not just about one situation where you'll stun them once, hit them once and then they Flash away. But if it's just the case where both stances are literally no good after one hit anyway, then it's useless to talk about it at all, since in either case the gank fails.
If we are to talk about it with meaning, it has to be looked at from a perspective where Udyr would succeed in a gank. Examples include when your lane has good CC too, when the enemy has already burned their Flash and when you're doing a tower gank.
For example, since we are talking about a level 2 gank, I can assume that Udyr started red buff (like Diamondprox did). Since Wilding Claw gives an AS buff, that means extra procs of red buff slow, which are more likely to secure the kill after the initial stun, even if they had Flash. Comparing to Wingborne Storm, you do more upfront damage (not as much thereafter), but proc the red buff less and so the enemy is more likely to be able to escape.
Doran's Blade is sold later in the game, so in the end, Tiger Udyr actually does build pretty much no damage. In addition, you didn't calculate the increase in AS.Hate to harp on about the same thing, but Diamondprox started off with D-Blade, got a First Blood double kill and then built only defensive items afterwards (
Runic Bulwark and Spirit of the Ancient Golem). The enemy still ran when they saw the Udyr coming.In your maths, did you factor in runes or just base?
The fact that Phoenix is AoE also doesn't really matter all that much, since nobody will die to the AoE alone (15+25% AP every second for 5 seconds) and 2 out of the 3 lanes are solo lanes. His first attack in Phoenix deals a fair amount of mixed damage and then he gets a mixed damage proc every third attack.
On the other hand, Tiger deals additional damage every single hit instead of every 3rd hit.
If we're talking about ganks, it's not just about one situation where you'll stun them once, hit them once and then they
Flash away. But if it's just the case where both stances are literally no good after one hit anyway, then it's useless to talk about it at all, since in either case the gank fails.If we are to talk about it with meaning, it has to be looked at from a perspective where
Udyr would succeed in a gank. Examples include when your lane has good CC too, when the enemy has already burned their Flash and when you're doing a tower gank.For example, since we are talking about a level 2 gank, I can assume that
Udyr started red buff (like Diamondprox did). Since Wilding Claw gives an AS buff, that means extra procs of red buff slow, which are more likely to secure the kill after the initial stun, even if they had Flash. Comparing to Wingborne Storm, you do more upfront damage (not as much thereafter), but proc the red buff less and so the enemy is more likely to be able to escape.
Crows foot
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How strong is udyr now? I like him, but he was so easily countered with all the gapclosers and kiters!
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sirell wrote:
For Tiger, the
Doran's Blade is sold later in the game, so in the end, Tiger Udyr actually does build pretty much no damage. In addition, you didn't calculate the increase in AS.Hate to harp on about the same thing, but Diamondprox started off with D-Blade, got a First Blood double kill and then built only defensive items afterwards (
Runic Bulwark and Spirit of the Ancient Golem). The enemy still ran when they saw the Udyr coming.In your maths, did you factor in runes or just base?
The fact that Phoenix is AoE also doesn't really matter all that much, since nobody will die to the AoE alone (15+25% AP every second for 5 seconds) and 2 out of the 3 lanes are solo lanes. His first attack in Phoenix deals a fair amount of mixed damage and then he gets a mixed damage proc every third attack.
On the other hand, Tiger deals additional damage every single hit instead of every 3rd hit.
If we're talking about ganks, it's not just about one situation where you'll stun them once, hit them once and then they
Flash away. But if it's just the case where both stances are literally no good after one hit anyway, then it's useless to talk about it at all, since in either case the gank fails.If we are to talk about it with meaning, it has to be looked at from a perspective where
Udyr would succeed in a gank. Examples include when your lane has good CC too, when the enemy has already burned their Flash and when you're doing a tower gank.For example, since we are talking about a level 2 gank, I can assume that
Udyr started red buff (like Diamondprox did). Since Wilding Claw gives an AS buff, that means extra procs of red buff slow, which are more likely to secure the kill after the initial stun, even if they had Flash. Comparing to Wingborne Storm, you do more upfront damage (not as much thereafter), but proc the red buff less and so the enemy is more likely to be able to escape.but again, I wasn't trying to argue that.
The claim was that Tiger stance Udyr doesn't need AD to be a threat, which just isn't true. Without any AD, his damage is less than Phoenix Udyr's even with Red buff. So if I take previous comments to be true, I can assume he is not enough of a threat.
AS runes add enough to allow you to get to the third auto with phoenix in most ganks, which more than makes up for the 24 extra damage you would have gotten from tiger without any bonus AD. That's not even adding in the extra 15-30 damage you would likely have taken from the AoE.
Did you do the math on early game or late game?
I haven't done the math myself but in pretty sure tiger's early game burst is far higher than Phoenix's.
And uh sorry. I forgot what I wrote in this thread buti don't think I mentioned anything in the last few pages about needing ad to be a threat?
The first most important stage of a jungler is around level 3/4 withdoublebuff. This should be undeniable, right? Since the game has flown to a much more aggressive meta, you see much more dorans starts on junglers. By running tiger udyr with dorans you aren't punished for running heavily aggressive masteries, you save the money from pots you would've bought if starting machete, you have a stronger and more sustained early clear, and essentially you just have a better early game because you're much stronger. The whole point of tiger vs Phoenix is mostly for the early game. There absolutely no reason to play tiger if you arent running dorans lol. In mid game, teamfights come out become mobile and udyr will mostly get kited and spend time alternating between his main damage stance, turtle, and bear. The whole argument about Phoenix aoe is not substantiated because its based on the assumption that team fights are all grouped. To be fair at most you'll be hitting two or three people if you go Phoenix, and most of them can sustain anyways, so the damage argument doesn't make any sense. Only until late game will teamfights be more grouped, but at that point how much damage will udyr actually do to bruisers? Enemies have high resistances and you have no damage items. It doesn't matter if you'll tiger or Phoenix.
And for the people who mentioned split pushing, I honestly do not see any time in the game where the jungler will be split pushing. You're literally asking the enemy team to abuse the fact that you're in some other lane to take objectives ( unless you're Shen which you're not). The only time where the aoe is useful is when you're shoving lanes and clearing camps.
I'm not gonna bother responding to nickname zzz
Sorry if it was messy I'm having trouble writing on my iPad -_-
I haven't done the math myself but in pretty sure tiger's early game burst is far higher than Phoenix's.
And uh sorry. I forgot what I wrote in this thread buti don't think I mentioned anything in the last few pages about needing ad to be a threat?
The first most important stage of a jungler is around level 3/4 withdoublebuff. This should be undeniable, right? Since the game has flown to a much more aggressive meta, you see much more dorans starts on junglers. By running tiger udyr with dorans you aren't punished for running heavily aggressive masteries, you save the money from pots you would've bought if starting machete, you have a stronger and more sustained early clear, and essentially you just have a better early game because you're much stronger. The whole point of tiger vs Phoenix is mostly for the early game. There absolutely no reason to play tiger if you arent running dorans lol. In mid game, teamfights come out become mobile and udyr will mostly get kited and spend time alternating between his main damage stance, turtle, and bear. The whole argument about Phoenix aoe is not substantiated because its based on the assumption that team fights are all grouped. To be fair at most you'll be hitting two or three people if you go Phoenix, and most of them can sustain anyways, so the damage argument doesn't make any sense. Only until late game will teamfights be more grouped, but at that point how much damage will udyr actually do to bruisers? Enemies have high resistances and you have no damage items. It doesn't matter if you'll tiger or Phoenix.
And for the people who mentioned split pushing, I honestly do not see any time in the game where the jungler will be split pushing. You're literally asking the enemy team to abuse the fact that you're in some other lane to take objectives ( unless you're Shen which you're not). The only time where the aoe is useful is when you're shoving lanes and clearing camps.
I'm not gonna bother responding to nickname zzz
Sorry if it was messy I'm having trouble writing on my iPad -_-
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