Fiora's Builds

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Jpikachu1999] You build costs around 17.5 thousand gold. You will never be able to achieve this build, unless you are fed around 40 kills. [/quote] Wat. Someone is forgetting the magical power of CS, Towers and Dragon. In a 50 minute game, you are getting about 3.9K gold passively. That's without runes or masteries. Let's assume your team gets 4 dragons, 2 Barons and all the towers other than the nexus ones. That's another 2250 gold bringing you up to 6.15K gold. Not including kills, assists or CS, that's a large chunk of your proposed 17.5K gold. Keep in mind, 17 CS early game, is about equal to 1 kill. The CS:Kill ratio only goes down as the game progresses too. EDIT: I'm not even counting the gold you get from ending killing sprees either. EDIT2: I get about 15K as a solo top tank who rarely gets kills or assists because it's so lonely up there. Just a point of reference. Average ~200 CS, 1 GP/10 item.[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999][quote=Lugignaf] [quote=Jpikachu1999] You build costs around 17.5 thousand gold. You will never be able to achieve this build, unless you are fed around 40 kills. [/quote] Wat. Someone is forgetting the magical power of CS, Towers and Dragon. In a 50 minute game, you are getting about 3.9K gold passively. That's without runes or masteries. Let's assume your team gets 4 dragons, 2 Barons and all the towers other than the nexus ones. That's another 2250 gold bringing you up to 6.15K gold. Not including kills, assists or CS, that's a large chunk of your proposed 17.5K gold. Keep in mind, 17 CS early game, is about equal to 1 kill. The CS:Kill ratio only goes down as the game progresses too. EDIT: I'm not even counting the gold you get from ending killing sprees either. EDIT2: I get about 15K as a solo top tank who rarely gets kills or assists because it's so lonely up there. Just a point of reference. Average ~200 CS, 1 GP/10 item. [/quote] I'm assuming somewhere around 200 CS (which is about 4k gold), 2 dragons which is not even 1k gold (for one person, globally is different of course), about 10 kills and assists worth of gold which is about 3k gold? Add let's say randomly, 800 extra gold for ending killing sprees and first blood. If you add let's say, 4 towers, that's 150 * 4 = 600 gold. Natural gold gain over 30 minutes is about 1.8 gold? So, 400 + 4000 + 3000 + 600 + 1800 + 800 = 10,600 gold Those numbers of course will probably be off, as some games you get 4 dragons, the towers number is going to be off, because if you are winning you will have more than 4 towers, etc. Also, there will be those games where you get to kill like 4 people who are on killing sprees, which means more gold, but generally, at least in my experience, if you are winning the game, kills don't give as much gold as if you were losing. Maybe I'm not at a high ELO or something, but most of the time I don't finish my build (which the one I use is about 14.5k gold), even with 8 assists and 8 kills. When I play, our team normally averages 2 dragons and 4 towers unless we are clearly winning, or we are being dominated. Also, most games I only have about 140 CS at the end of the game, because once I get to a certain itemization/time I like to roam. Probably because I'm used to jungling. 2 Barons is a large amount of barons, I might go so far as to say unlikely. I would even say that 4 dragons is also unlikely, but hey, what do I know? Most of the time when I play dragons aren't attempted unless we get 2 kills or kill their jungler. As well as dragons being warded pretty much the whole game, which makes it difficult to do unseen. Same applies to Baron. If you had all the towers but the Nexus ones, then I would say you are on your way to victory, since all their inhibitors are exposed. 17 CS is equal to about 3 waves of minions, so that takes at least 2 minutes at the least, but realistically since minions spawn ever 30 seconds, you would have that much CS by around 8 minutes I think? Also, if you are your team's tank, how do you get 200 CS? In my experience, teamfights start around level 10 - 12, so I would think you would be invaluable to your team during fights. Most games are not 50 minutes, in fact, my longest game in the past month or two has been about 44 minutes? Which is because we were sitting in base fending off Super minions? I dunno, maybe I just have a different experience during my games in LoL, but I don't see too many games where someone gets above 15k gold, unless they are like 16/4/5. EDIT: I am a solo top Fiora who does not use a GP/10 item and averages 140 - 160 CS. I also do not initiate fights, thus I sometimes don't make it into teamfights until when they are ending, which gives me less gold because of no assists. I understand you say that you rarely get kills or assists, but honestly, I would think as a tank that you would get tons of assists during teamfights. Especially since 50 minutes is your average game time.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Solo top Maokai. Beefy jungler makes up for a true tank early game. I pressure the top tower constantly so they either lose CS or lose the tower and make most fights 4v4. I do get assists end game but the assist is mostly split 5 ways. Ergo, less gold. As for the 4 dragon thing, it has a 6 minute respawn timer. That's a total of 24 minutes with no dragon to kill and easily obtainable. The 2 baron thing is a tad unreasonable though and I'm stupid for suggesting it but I have seen games with 3 barons taken(7min respawn timer) so, it's not completely out there. Lastly, about tanks getting no CS. Singed, Shen, Cho-gath. All 3 are "tanks" and go solo top pretty well. Singed gets farm super easy and should easily get about that much. EDIT: I like these discussions. Gives me great practice defending my points in arguments which I really need IRL. :P[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999][quote=Lugignaf] Solo top Maokai. Beefy jungler makes up for a true tank early game. I pressure the top tower constantly so they either lose CS or lose the tower and make most fights 4v4. I do get assists end game but the assist is mostly split 5 ways. Ergo, less gold. As for the 4 dragon thing, it has a 6 minute respawn timer. That's a total of 24 minutes with no dragon to kill and easily obtainable. The 2 baron thing is a tad unreasonable though and I'm stupid for suggesting it but I have seen games with 3 barons taken(7min respawn timer) so, it's not completely out there. Lastly, about tanks getting no CS. Singed, Shen, Cho-gath. All 3 are "tanks" and go solo top pretty well. Singed gets farm super easy and should easily get about that much. EDIT: I like these discussions. Gives me great practice defending my points in arguments which I really need IRL. :P [/quote] I see, so that's how you are able to stay up top and farm. True, dragon has a 6 min respawn, but the thing is, the first dragon is usually attempted around 12 minutes or later. It doesn't spawn until 7 minutes into the game, so the earliest you could (theoretically) get 4 dragons is by 31 minutes, which assumes 0 time spent killing the dragon, it dies immediately. The team can't always get into position at the exact time dragon spawns, and the first dragon will probably be attempted by level 10 - 14's which means it usually takes about a minute or so to take the dragon down. Also, as I said, most of the games (in my experience) don't go past 40 minute mark. The reason that 2 barons is unreasonable is that it spawns at 15 minutes, and it usually isn't taken until after everyone has hit 18. Which is usually the 24 minute or so point. I never said tanks don't get CS. In fact, besides the carries, the tanks need the most CS out of the team, as they need to get the expensive tank items such as [[Warmog's Armor]], [[Randuin's Omen]], [[Force of Nature]] etc. I also find it odd that all the characters you have mentioned (including Maokai) all are used in the jungle as well :P Maybe it's because I like to roam after getting to a certain point in my build, so I lose a bunch of gold that way, but I still find it unlikely that you can get 17.5k build in 40 minutes. Also might be that I have a fairly cheap build, so, I don't rely on too much CS/gold gain to get started, and thus allow my roaming sort of playstyle, even if I end up with a little less itemization. -------------------------------------- By the way, Singed is OP. Nerf Irelia.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Jpikachu1999] I see, so that's how you are able to stay up top and farm. True, dragon has a 6 min respawn, but the thing is, the first dragon is usually attempted around 12 minutes or later. It doesn't spawn until 7 minutes into the game, so the earliest you could (theoretically) get 4 dragons is by 31 minutes, which assumes 0 time spent killing the dragon, it dies immediately. The team can't always get into position at the exact time dragon spawns, and the first dragon will probably be attempted by level 10 - 14's which means it usually takes about a minute or so to take the dragon down. Also, as I said, most of the games (in my experience) don't go past 40 minute mark. [/quote] Fiddles Trundle and Warwick can all sneak early dragons with their super good sustain and steroids. Also, with a jungle Nasus you can sneak an early baron. Same with Fiddlesticks. He can drain-tank that thing for months almost. [quote=Jpikachu1999] Maybe it's because I like to roam after getting to a certain point in my build, so I lose a bunch of gold that way, but I still find it unlikely that you can get 17.5k build in 40 minutes. Also might be that I have a fairly cheap build, so, I don't rely on too much CS/gold gain to get started, and thus allow my roaming sort of playstyle, even if I end up with a little less itemization. [/quote] I have that issue sometimes too. It really depends on how hard I can push versus the other champion. If I was Fiora, I would be roaming as Fiora is a carry and does best with kills. I would also be stealing CS from the enemy jungler as I pass by. Help the entire team other than just myself.[/quote]

[quote=RCIX][quote=Jpikachu1999] [quote=RCIX] [quote=JMastiff] Define her glass cannon and see her as often as master yi in competetive play. Why would you do that if you don't have any defensive treats? Where would you put her, solo top? She'd be countered easily by ranged or tankier tops. [/quote] Frozen mallet not defensive? Lolwut. Anyway, yes, she's a situational pick. Her kit doesn't have the disruption, innate tankiness, or innate damage to be a bruiser; this means building tanky derps just results in a Fiora that's mostly ignored till she's all thats left to focus. Dem's da breaks! [/quote] So, building her tanky DPS doesn't let her be a bruiser? Sure, she is a little squishy, but she has build in health regen with [[duelist]], which stacks 4 times against champions. At level 18, that 100 health/6 seconds. I would disagree, she is very often focused, because she still has great damage while being fairly durable. She has 35 bonus AD and 120% bonus AS, that wrecks any squishy, even without glasscannon items. [/quote] Im saying when you build her tanky DPS she doesn't output the damage like a real bruiser can. Consider your average bruiser top. Say, Renekton, Riven, Nasus, or Lee Sin. What do they share? * Strong innate damage (Riven's Q/W, Renekton's Q/W, Nasus' Q, Lee Sin's Q/E) * Good survivability mechanic/sustain (Riven's E, Renekton's Q/E, Nasus' W (?), Lee Sin's W) * Solid disruption/CC abilities (Riven's W, Renekton's W, Nasus' W, Lee Sin's E/R) * Generally, mobility (Riven's E, Renekton's E, Lee Sin's Q/W) Fiora has decent innate damage, poor survivability, no CC, and good mobility. This adds up to a poor choice as a bruiser. When you're only hitting 2 of the notes in the first place for a role, you don't keep shoehorning the champ (to mangle two metaphors; i don't even know which two they were :3) Consider: Lets say you get fratmogs, a guardian angel, and last whisper. That's putting you at around 250 damage, 4k health, decent resistances. If you go after a squishy, they can autoattack and lifesteal back the damage you're doing, and chunk you with 400-500 damage crits. You have no disengage, minimal survivability beyond your items, and only a poorly scaled ult (you fed it about 120 damage, wooooo!). Compared to a mostly glass cannon build with BT, PD, IE, Fromal, and your other choice of damage item here. You're looking at massive AD, huge crits, nearly AS capped for free, and superb properties for shredding conventional AD carries. Granted, you'll drop in 1 second if you get super focused, but that usually buys you enough time to mash your R and kill your target +chunk 25% health off most of the rest of their team, and be lifestealed back to full for another round.[/quote]

[quote=iownedya][quote=RCIX] Compared to a BT, which can get you something like 500 extra damage from autoattacks in the same space of time, gives you lifesteal, and it also scales off Q and R? I could do a second round of mathcraft involving a full build with/without trinity, but Id really rather not =/ A simplified version is this: * Trinity force gives you ~170 damage procs every 2 seconds. These procs cannot crit and count as an on-hit effect instead of extra damage. * A Bloodthirster gives you 100 extra damage per attack (scaling with attack speed and crit), an extra 240 damage on single target R, and an extra 120 damage on double-cast lunge Which would you pick, especially if you've already built some health? [/quote] Actually, that build DOES have [[Bloodthirster]] in it. Don't forget the Atma's damage! It will give about 100 extra. [[Trinity Force]] will be 400 procs every two seconds. Each crit will do 1000 damage with a 50 - 60% chance to crit. This build gives a lot more health as well as massive damage. Her E will be enough to give her massive danage per second. [[Atma's Impaler]] gives armor, can't complain about that. About 3,500 health, also can't complain. Also, I'm not counting 40 stacks on [[Bloodthirster]] when I talk about 1,000 crits.[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999][quote=RCIX] [quote=Jpikachu1999] [quote=RCIX] [quote=JMastiff] Define her glass cannon and see her as often as master yi in competetive play. Why would you do that if you don't have any defensive treats? Where would you put her, solo top? She'd be countered easily by ranged or tankier tops. [/quote] Frozen mallet not defensive? Lolwut. Anyway, yes, she's a situational pick. Her kit doesn't have the disruption, innate tankiness, or innate damage to be a bruiser; this means building tanky derps just results in a Fiora that's mostly ignored till she's all thats left to focus. Dem's da breaks! [/quote] So, building her tanky DPS doesn't let her be a bruiser? Sure, she is a little squishy, but she has build in health regen with [[duelist]], which stacks 4 times against champions. At level 18, that 100 health/6 seconds. I would disagree, she is very often focused, because she still has great damage while being fairly durable. She has 35 bonus AD and 120% bonus AS, that wrecks any squishy, even without glasscannon items. [/quote] Im saying when you build her tanky DPS she doesn't output the damage like a real bruiser can. Consider your average bruiser top. Say, Renekton, Riven, Nasus, or Lee Sin. What do they share? * Strong innate damage (Riven's Q/W, Renekton's Q/W, Nasus' Q, Lee Sin's Q/E) * Good survivability mechanic/sustain (Riven's E, Renekton's Q/E, Nasus' W (?), Lee Sin's W) * Solid disruption/CC abilities (Riven's W, Renekton's W, Nasus' W, Lee Sin's E/R) * Generally, mobility (Riven's E, Renekton's E, Lee Sin's Q/W) Fiora has decent innate damage, poor survivability, no CC, and good mobility. This adds up to a poor choice as a bruiser. When you're only hitting 2 of the notes in the first place for a role, you don't keep shoehorning the champ (to mangle two metaphors; i don't even know which two they were :3) Consider: Lets say you get fratmogs, a guardian angel, and last whisper. That's putting you at around 250 damage, 4k health, decent resistances. If you go after a squishy, they can autoattack and lifesteal back the damage you're doing, and chunk you with 400-500 damage crits. You have no disengage, minimal survivability beyond your items, and only a poorly scaled ult (you fed it about 120 damage, wooooo!). Compared to a mostly glass cannon build with BT, PD, IE, Fromal, and your other choice of damage item here. You're looking at massive AD, huge crits, nearly AS capped for free, and superb properties for shredding conventional AD carries. Granted, you'll drop in 1 second if you get super focused, but that usually buys you enough time to mash your R and kill your target +chunk 25% health off most of the rest of their team, and be lifestealed back to full for another round. [/quote] She has strong innate damage, her passive on her W, and her AS on her E. Throw on a Wriggle's and you can just hit a few minions to gain health. She has no disruption or CC, true. However, what she lacks in CC she brings with her ability to kill a carry really quickly even with non glasscannon items. She has great mobility. Nonono, you don't build Last Whisper or Warmog's. You don't have enough DPS then. The build should look like this: [[Mercury's Treads]] [[Wit's End]] [[Frozen Mallet]] [[Atma's Impaler]] [[Youmuu's Ghostblade]] [[Wriggle's Lantern]] Not necessarily in that order. What are you talking about they will auto attack you to death? You get about 150 or more Armor with a tanky DPS build. Plus, you can activate Youmuu's and your E and you already hit the AS cap. AP carries will have trouble bursting you down because of your MR. Also, your example of tanky DPS had no lifesteal, without lifesteal, you don't got Fiora. Sure, you can mash your R with your build. Mash R on the nearest character. The tank. Also, how about the tank, let's say Shen, [[Shadow Dash]]es you and you can't do anything. From your post, I got this idea: [[Berseker's Greaves]] [[Phantom Dancer]] [[Infinity Edge]] [[The bloodthirster]] [[Frozen Mallet]] and let's say [[The black cleaver]] Basically, all the said AD carry has to do is build a [[thornmail]] so that they live your initial [[Blade Waltz]] and then you die immediately under focus fire. You could argue it's the same with the tanky DPS, but with the tanky DPS you won't die under one second of focus fire. So, you will be able to maybe get the kill.[/quote]

[quote=iownedya]Yes! Tanky dps is a lot better than glass-cannons. Those cannons break right away! While tanks are nearly indestructible. Never like the [[Phantom Dancer]] on [[Fiora]] anyway. Warmog's DOES give you a bunch of damage from [[Atma's Impaler]]! That with [[Trinity Force]] is basically overpowered. [[Black Cleaver]]?? Puhhleaasse! You won't live long enough to get those three hits you need. That example? The one with [[Bloodthirster]]? or no? I think [[Bloodthirster]] IS lifesteal, mayhaps I am wrong :P The build I'm guessing Majorlol got this idea from is in my sig. That is the exact same item build... So yeah.[/quote]

[quote=Minkey]My build aint glasscannon and im proud of it[/quote]