How to make Bloodthirster a more viable item.

[quote=Searz][quote]It's a balanced item, but I guess you are asking for praise from MOBAFire.[/quote] Really? Why does everyone feel the need to be rude? I'm just trying to state facts and recommend solutions :( Base AD doesn't have anything to do with your final damage on crit builds. An item with only crit could very well beat one with lots of AD. Please look at the graphs. They show that the current BT is worse/equal to items that don't include any risk at all. BT is a luxury item that can be bought when you know you've won, but other than that it simply isn't viable compared to other items.[/quote]

[quote=PFP]I get it (BT) on AD TF, or any champion that wants to sustain a push with the lifesteal it provides and take turrets (auto-attacks). But those champions are rare and not many can use that strategy. So in a champion vs. champion outlook, BT isn't that great unless combined with an ArP item and an ability that scales very well with AD (even then it is still outshone by an I-Edge especially if you die and lose the stacks); however it helps you heal back up after a teamfight to push-to-win.[/quote]

[quote=SixSonatas][quote=Searz]Really? Why does everyone feel the need to be rude? I'm just trying to state [u][b]facts[/b][/u] and recommend solutions :( Base AD doesn't have anything to do with your final damage on crit builds. An item with only crit could very well beat one with lots of AD. Please look at the graphs. They show that the current BT is worse/equal to items that don't include any risk at all. BT is a luxury item that can be bought when you know you've won, but other than that it simply isn't viable compared to other items. [/quote] Sorry to break your ego but it's not a fact, it's an opinion. It's not about your graphs, where, by the way, you forget to factor in the other effects. It's like saying IE is better than Trinity Force because it has more base AD. I will say this AGAIN. IE is an item every ranged DPS gets because it's crucial, BT, BC, and items like those are SITUATIONAL. Your purpose seems to be to make BT an item that every ranged DPS NEEDS to get, so you want cut down on the build options for LoL? Are you trying to make it a SUPER linear game? This is where I stop. I'm not going to try to convince you if you aren't going to listen. It just makes you look like a guy I'd get out of the kitchen because of.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I really don't like your "tone". I want to have a civil discussion here, please don't be an asshole.. [quote=SixSonatas] your graphs, where, by the way, you forget to factor in the other effects. It's like saying IE is better than Trinity Force because it has more base AD.[/quote] What effects do I forget? I've stated clearly (in the graphing thread at least) that I include [u]everything[/u] that affects your damage. [quote]Your purpose seems to be to make BT an item that every ranged DPS NEEDS to get, so you want cut down on the build options for LoL? Are you trying to make it a SUPER linear game?[/quote] I've stated several times that I only wanna make it a viable item. As it is right now I don't think it is. I have shown through accurate graphs that BT is about equal to other items when it's fully stacked. That means that BT gives no reward for making the owner of the item go trough the hassle of stacking it up.[/quote]

[quote=SixSonatas][quote=Searz] What effects do I forget? I've stated clearly (in the graphing thread at least) that I include everything that affects your damage.[/quote] Last I checked it's not all about damage, the lifesteal is a main component of why people get BT, otherwise they would probably get Ghostblade or BC for damage amplification. You're arguing to make BT a more viable ITEM, so you have to consider all of its components, not just damage, since lifesteal obviously doesn't give any extra damage. However the item, as a whole, is balanced. If BT ONLY gave 60 damage (+40 that can be lost upon death) then yes, I would agree, buff it; however, that's not the case. [quote=Searz] I've stated several times that I only wanna make it a viable item. As it is right now I don't think it is. I have shown through accurate graphs that BT is about equal to other items when it's fully stacked. That means that BT gives no reward for making the owner of the item go trough the hassle of stacking it up. [/quote] If you think 100 AD and 25% LS is negligible, I can tell you that you're wrong. It's situational, viable, and the only reason Riot doesn't change it is because of its balance. Any buffs to it would make it "OP" while nerfs to it would make it UP. How about this. When Riot buffs BT, I'll come back, take my word back, and take your theory crafting more seriously - if they nerf it or never end up touching it, well, I get to say I told you so.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=SixSonatas] Last I checked it's not all about damage, the lifesteal is a main component of why people get BT, otherwise they would probably get Ghostblade or BC for damage amplification. You're arguing to make BT a more viable ITEM, so you have to consider all of its components, not just damage, since lifesteal obviously doesn't give any extra damage.[/quote] I do take other stats into account for my evaluations. It does however, as you say; not affect the graphs. But I do write when there are stats not affecting damage and let the reader make his own conclusion. I'll be posting more graphs comparing other items, check back if you're interested and think you can keep the discussion civil.[/quote]

[quote=SixSonatas][quote=Searz] I do take other stats into account for my evaluations. It does, as you say; not affect the graphs. However I do write when there are stats not affecting damage and [u][b]let the reader make his own conclusion.[/b][/u] I'll be posting more graphs comparing other items, check back if you're interested and think you can keep the discussion civil. [/quote] It should end here then right? Don't go into "all-knowing" mode just because some people agreed with you. You did your research in Rune Tips, and I find your research here to be lacking. It's hard to argue there because runes give singular stats and therefore your comparisons are valid. Here? Not so much. MOBA-esque games like LoL are too dynamic for you to just judge an item based on stats alone - it depends how certain heroes can use it. It's like saying BT is useless because I never use it on Annie. I can, but I choose not to. I also always use it on Tryndamere because it makes his dueling capabilities a lot stronger, and he tends not to die, that makes it OP and needs nerf, yes? Items aren't runes, Searz, you can try all you want to compare items like you do runes, but it's just not going to work. I'm really done trying to convince you, really done. No more posts here from me.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]You can disregard my opinion completely and just make your own opinion. The graphs are just there to help you make your own opinion. That is the sole reason I make the graphs. Don't try to make it seem any other way..[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Please don't mind the "heated" discussion. Come with suggestions and feedback, let's discuss the shit out of this subject people! [h2]Update:[/h2] 3 new graphs added. It seems ArP is the single greatest source of damage, so it wasn't an entirely fair comparison to make BT go against ArP items. I also updated my suggestions. The first one now costs more, maxes out at 110AD and stacks even slower. You'll likely have to kill 4minions per AD if you only kill low hp minions. The second suggestion now has 15% life steal down from 20% and the passive now gives max 30AD(110 total). It now also stacks up slower (160 up from 100). I figured that it would be too easy to stack it up in midgame otherwise.[/quote]

[quote=Restrictnine#5232]So basically Searz is like HeAt and ignores anything that isnt his opinion... So you mean to tell me that Last whisper is better against a 40 armor ashe than a fully stacked Bloodthirster.... hmm. interesting. For some reason i feel there is something wrong with that statement. What you are doing with your graphs is putting a HUGE emphasis on the amount of armor a person has. When you compare last whisper to Bloodthirster, of COURSE last whisper is more effective than Bloodthirster against 5000 armor Fed Malphite. But you can't stack Last whisper, you have more than one item slot, and IMO youmuu is even more situational than Bloodthirster. its only useful against squishies / bulky squishies because flat arp does nothing against tanks. So yes, Last whisper is probably a more essential item than bloodthirster, but because last whisper is more important does by no means make bloodthirster useless. Go ahead. Stack your last whispers. Ill stack bloodthirsters and we see who wins. Oh wait i forgot you arent basing this info off of stacking items just the singular items. derp. right so i get one bloodthirster and you get one last whisper and we fight and see who wins. thats pretty good testing right? doesnt get better than that. i mean if i see it first hand its even better than mindlessly arguing about it as you think this is. Searz your rune guide was very well thought out and a very solid guide that is probably the single most staple guide on this website because it isnt designed to teach someone how to play the game, it is designed to inform people of the effectiveness of runes. But this thread... Its horrible theory-crafting. No thought was put into how effective bloodthirster is. Its worse than PFP's phantom dancer thread. Phantom dancer is a bit like Bloodthirster. It is by no means a BAD item, in fact, i think it is a great item that should be used more often. Sure, it sucks on champs that dont utilize crit or attack speed, but on other champs like GP and ashe PD is a great item. [move speed crit and attack speed on ashe is so broken op] But of course, you won't pay attention because "im mindlessly raging" so go ahead disregard this "heated debate" but you can't delete my post. People will see the darker side to your proposed utopia.[/quote]