Click to open network menu
Join or Log In
Mobafire logo

Join the leading League of Legends community. Create and share Champion Guides and Builds.

Create an MFN Account






Or

's Forum Avatar

How to make Bloodthirster a more viable item.

Creator: Searz February 21, 2011 12:35pm

This thread is locked

PLEASE NOTE: This thread has been locked by the moderators. You cannot reply to it.

Rudmed
<Editor>
Rudmed's Forum Avatar
Posts:
2394
Joined:
Dec 10th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 26, 2011 4:26pm | Report
Ah yes excellent that will help me determine what item I need in my build. *evil laughter*.
Restrictnine#5232
<Veteran>
Restrictnine#5232's Forum Avatar
Posts:
1286
Joined:
Jul 18th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 8:35am | Report
These graphs are in terms of worth in terms of damage per gold spent. Of course BF sword items are inefficient. If you really want to split hairs, every late game item is hugely inefficient compared to stuff like doran's items. If there was no item slot limit, I would just buy 1000 doran's blades. Stuff that is expensive, like banshees, is HUGELY cost inefficient, but that is the price to pay for having better items. You need to take into account the usefulness of the items you have as well. For example, ghostblade may be more efficient in terms of consistent dps, but how often do you really get to just sit there and attack the enemy? You can put all the armor pen you want on sivir, but if she lacks AD she is fairly useless.

Sure, Bloodthirster is ineffective, but do you REALLY think 120 damage on one item that you cant lose stacks on is a balanced item? think about it. You would have theoretically over 100% lifesteal and 600 bonus AD.

this of course is assuming you are disgustingly fed and at that point this argument is irrelevant anyways.

On a more relevant note, you need to take a look at the LoL community at the moment. Almost all ranged dps carries buy AT LEAST one bloodthirster, so that should tell you something about the item. I feel like people wouldnt use it so much if it was such a bad item like you say it is. Giving it 30% lifesteal and 120 AD for under 4k gold is just flat out broken. if you buff bloodthirster that much, then buff infinity edge too... and we all know THAT doesnt need a buff either.
Click on the Banner to see my new and improved Udyr guide!


Guides By RestrictNine, A.K.A. Taggrin
Jebus McAzn
<Retired Moderator>
Jebus McAzn's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7017
Joined:
Sep 30th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 9:25am | Report
I kind of agree. Bloodthirster is a good item when you've basically finished your other items (I-Edge, Last Whisper, etc). Still, the reason a lot of people get Bloodthirster later on is probably because they're only seeing it for the numbers and not considering other items. In a situation where you have Merc Treads, I-Edge, The Black Cleaver, Phantom Dancer, and a fifth slot for elixirs/wards, I would be a player who would rather buy a Banshee's Veil to stay alive as opposed to Bloodthirster for raw damage.

Searz, although it may not be possible or just too tedious, what about a series of graphs evaluating The Bloodthirster's efficiency on a typical ranged carry's completed item build? Say you assume high base damage, crit chance, attack speed, and armor pen, or something around those lines. Then compare the efficiency of BT to, say, Phantom Dancer, The Black Cleaver, etc. That's probably completely implausible, but it would give a more accurate representation of its true value.

But I agree with the point that Restrictnine made - a lot of late-game items are inefficient. These graphs show that it's a terrible idea to rush The Bloodthirster or get it as your third/fourth item, but not the case of the late-game scenario.
SixSonatas
<Veteran>
SixSonatas's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
778
Joined:
Oct 10th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 9:52am | Report
I don't know why people think efficiency is everything without considering the secondary stats. You can't just compare the AD you get from an item, that's like comparing full stacks Sword of the Occult and Infinity Edge, what wins? SotO by a longshot.

So, what is BT good on? DPS that can either deal a LOT of damage (kiting preferred), or DPS with very good survivability (in this case, you would lose some damage).

The NON-UNIQUE passive lifesteal from BT makes it an insane item. Ever think of a Tryndamere critting for 1200 with about 95% crit chance (at 100% health) and probably very high AS, while gaining 15%-25% (at least 180) HP back per strike? Don't forget the Bloodlust heal.

So no Searz, you are not right, BT isn't "the worst carry item available", it's just very circumstantial. Just because it's not a good choice on most carries doesn't mean it's not useful on other characters. If you buffed an item to suit "most carries", you'd have to NERF everyone else who can now abuse the new BT. Which, by the way, the new BT of 120 AD (can't be lost) is crazy, I don't know why people think that's "balanced". If it gave 120 AD, make the item transfer to an enemy upon death (or disappear), because that's too high of a reward for no risk at all.

By the way your comparison to scaling with Warmog's is complete BS, because they give totally different stats. There are NO AD items that give more than 75 AD for an item, and you're suggesting it give 80 BASE and 120 CAP that CAN'T be lost? Warmog's is a very circumstantial item as well due to the cost (of buying PURE health and no defenses, making you squishy for 3K gold) and secondary effect (HP regen, almost useless in team fights), so you're right, both BT and Warmog's are in the same boat, but that means you can't buff BT because Warmog's isn't OP or UP.

*Edit: Ninja'd by Restrictnine
Super old vet that almost never goes on Mobafire anymore. Contact me in game @ SixSonatas and Mobafire chat (NA).
Searz
<Ancient Member>
Searz's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
13418
Joined:
Jun 6th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 2:07pm | Report
Quoted:

These graphs are in terms of worth in terms of damage per gold spent.

I'm sad that you state something when you have no idea of how it is.. These graphs compare DAMAGE ONLY.

Quoted:
Sure, Bloodthirster is ineffective, but do you REALLY think 120 damage on one item that you cant lose stacks on is a balanced item? think about it. You would have theoretically over 100% lifesteal and 600 bonus AD.

After the changes I made it now scales almost exactly like Warmog's Armor. Is Warmog's an OP item?

Quoted:
On a more relevant note, you need to take a look at the LoL community at the moment. Almost all ranged dps carries buy AT LEAST one bloodthirster, so that should tell you something about the item. I feel like people wouldnt use it so much if it was such a bad item like you say it is. Giving it 30% lifesteal and 120 AD for under 4k gold is just flat out broken. if you buff bloodthirster that much, then buff infinity edge too... and we all know THAT doesnt need a buff either.

I will make the stacking a tad bit slower than it is atm, but other than that it's very balanced. If this item is OP then so is Warmog's Armor.
"every now and again you come across a game that has so little emotional connection to who you are that you end up standing there, gazing at the screen and saying "I'm just pressing buttons and my life has no meaning,"" - Colin Campbell
Searz
<Ancient Member>
Searz's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
13418
Joined:
Jun 6th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 2:46pm | Report

Searz, although it may not be possible or just too tedious, what about a series of graphs evaluating The Bloodthirster's efficiency on a typical ranged carry's completed item build? Say you assume high base damage, crit chance, attack speed, and armor pen, or something around those lines. Then compare the efficiency of BT to, say, Phantom Dancer, The Black Cleaver, etc. That's probably completely implausible, but it would give a more accurate representation of its true value.

So I use high base stats and then compare the usefulness of other items? Nah, I don't think that would bring totally accurate results. I am gonna compare other items with it later though. Items like Black Cleaver, Stark's Fervor and Phantom Dancer. Tell me if there are any other suggestions you'd like me to add.

Quoted:
But I agree with the point that Restrictnine made - a lot of late-game items are inefficient. These graphs show that it's a terrible idea to rush The Bloodthirster or get it as your third/fourth item, but not the case of the late-game scenario.

Lategame efficiency has nothing to do with this.. Bloodthirster would be an decent (not good) item if the stacks didn't disappear on death, but that is not the case here :(
""Toshabi took thy **** and strucketh Hotshot in his face 'thou art no god'" Toshabi 3:16" - Toshabi

"And then, TheJohn said something so Brazilian that it made all the Brazilians in Brazil turn to look at him" - Toshabi

"abloobloo ur triggering me" - Toshabi
Searz
<Ancient Member>
Searz's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
13418
Joined:
Jun 6th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 3:46pm | Report
SixSonatas wrote:

I don't know why people think efficiency is everything without considering the secondary stats. You can't just compare the AD you get from an item, that's like comparing full stacks Sword of the Occult and Infinity Edge, what wins? SotO by a longshot.

I compare the fully stacked stats of BT.
Infinity Edge actually wins against a fully stacked SotO :P

Quoted:
So no Searz, you are not right, BT isn't "the worst carry item available", it's just very circumstantial.

It is the worst one available right now. It NEEDS some buff to be as viable as other items. Maybe not a buff as big as the ones I've stated, but it needs to at least keep it's stacks on death to be worth considering. That I can say for sure. I do not on the other hand know for sure if it needs to be buffed as far as my suggestions say. I'm gonna investigate that with the next couple of graphs.
"Well, basically you should treat me like a prostitute." - TotalBiscuit
Restrictnine#5232
<Veteran>
Restrictnine#5232's Forum Avatar
Posts:
1286
Joined:
Jul 18th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 4:13pm | Report
Searz wrote:


I'm sad that you state something when you have no idea of how it is.. These graphs compare DAMAGE ONLY.

I'm sad that you are silly enough not realize that graphs need two variables to, how do you say, "graph" information. How are you comparing the damage? to itself? what are the numbers on the bottom of the graph? are they there to make it look neater? And you honestly mean to tell me that it is better to stack five youmuu's ghostblades on sivir than 5 bloodthirsters? now, obviously you dont want five of either, but you see my point. I hope...
Searz wrote:

After the changes I made it now scales almost exactly like Warmog's Armor. Is Warmog's an OP item?

Please tell me you arent serious here. You mean to tell me that you are comparing Hit points to Attack Damage? you stack warmogs and i stack full stacked bloodthirsters and i guarantee you i will win every time.
Also, I hope you realize that Warmogs is permanent stacking because the creaters of the item feel that Attack Damage is a much higher commodity than hit points. Also would you really buy warmogs if you lost stacks on death? In fact, how many people do you know at all that buy warmogs? NO high elo players buy warmogs unless they have a huge lead already. BT on the other hand, is entirely different. High elo players buy it on a regular basis buy Bloodthirster. That alone has to tell you something. Im not saying I know and you dont, its just a fact.
Now you might say, you noob im not COMPARING bloodthirster to Warmogs, but you kind of are. "is warmogs an OP item?" of course not you silly noob, but does warmogs give AD? no. You mean to tell me that you think health on a champion is just as important as AD on a carry?
the way warmogs scales is far from op... if you are talking about hit points. but it IS incredibly op if you can't lose stacks of AD. If you think about it, its like changing mejai's soulstealer or sword of the occult so it never loses stacks. It is a ridiculous thing to say.

Searz wrote:

I will make the stacking a tad bit slower than it is atm, but other than that it's very balanced. If this item is OP then so is Warmog's Armor.

once again. you have no idea what you are talking about. warmogs does not equal bloodthirster. they are entirely different items with entirely different purposes. if you had an item that could permanently get 120 AD and never lose stacks, would you really consider any other item? that is 45 AD over infinity edge, and even with the crit boost on infinity edge, is it really worth it to buy a more expensive item that gives 45 LESS attack damage? I dont think so. Your proposal just makes no sense. You would have every carry just stacking bloodthirsters, with maybe last whisper or phantom dancer. Bloodthirster would just outshine every other carry AD item.
your comparisons lack forethought.

also. Next time you rage at me, dont treat me like a child.
Click on the Banner to see my new and improved Udyr guide!


Guides By RestrictNine, A.K.A. Taggrin
Jebus McAzn
<Retired Moderator>
Jebus McAzn's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
7017
Joined:
Sep 30th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 4:17pm | Report
guys let's cut down on the rage kk
Searz
<Ancient Member>
Searz's Forum Avatar
Show more awards
Posts:
13418
Joined:
Jun 6th, 2010
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep February 27, 2011 4:29pm | Report
Who raged at who? I was trying to have a conversation here, I was not in any way rude.. Your response on the other hand was a tad bit rude..

Now I will calmly respond to your comment.
I was tired when writing that (still am), but I believe BT needs a small boost to the base stats and to not lose the stacks on death. My suggestion might be a bit OP, but not much.
Point being that I've proven that BT is at least somewhat UP. I mainly wanted to discuss how to improve it. Throw your 5c in if you'd like to.
"Moral justification is a powerful disengagement mechanism. Destructive conduct is made personally and socially acceptable by portraying it in the service of moral ends." - Albert Bandura

"Ultimately, if people lose their willingness to recognize that there are times in our history when legality becomes distinct from morality, we aren't just ceding control of our rights to government, but our futures." - Edward Snowden

League of Legends Champions:

Teamfight Tactics Guide