Rushing Last Whisper

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Pranzatelli] I feel ignored. I think caps will fix this problem. AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, TEMZILLA, YOUR MATH IS FLAWED! IT IS AN ARMOR-BLIND DPS SIMULATION! ALMOST ALL OF LAST WHISPER'S VALUE COMES FROM ARMOR PENETRATION! IF YOU THINK THAT LAST WHISPER IS ONLY VALUABLE AT 202 ARMOR, PLEASE POST YOUR MATHEMATICAL EVIDENCE FOR THAT STATEMENT! Also, that's interesting. With little to no AP, Rabadon's is terrible for the cost. Though I'd rather focus on Last Whisper. [/quote] http://www.mediafire.com/file/hcxml3c2lnm5amk/IE%20vs%20LW.xlsx Also, my "Gold/EDPS" column is backwards, it's actually the amount of EDPS you get per gold. Bigger numbers = better in all cases. The 46.3 out to the side is the BASE for which i subtract, because I'm looking purely at the increase in DPS/gold, not the total dps/gold.[/quote]

[quote=Pranzatelli]"If it's your opinion that reliable damage is better than massive crushing spike damage, your opinion is unfortunately wrong." Ugh. Are you doing anything more than skimming what I say? I'm saying that burst damage is not a virtue in its own right, and in light of the arguments for and against it, I'd prefer to treat it as a constant value to DPS (so that I can compare it to other values). If you can't see the faults in RNG, you are very optimistic. The game re-rolls every swing; 25% crit chance doesn't mean one out of every four hits are going to crit. And thank you, Temzilla. I will be using a different computer to view it and I will look forward to discussing it with you :D[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Pranzatelli]And thank you, Temzilla. I will be using a different computer to view it and I will look forward to discussing it with you :D[/quote] My math was wrong, my bad. Instead of [code]=B1*((100)/((B2*0.54)+94))[/code] in cell B3, enter instead [code]=B1*((100)/(((B2-6)*0.54)+100))[/code] I was simulating the flat armor penetration from Masteries in the wrong order. I Think I'm just going to make this a little bit more elequent, and re-upload it. Haha, go figure, i messed it up on both of them. http://www.mediafire.com/file/pybiik47nynd2j0/IE%20vs%20LW.xlsx New Link.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=Temzilla] Let's say you are someone who doesn't scale super mega awesomely amazing with AD, like Ashe. Base [icon=Berserker's Greaves size=32]: 130.258 [icon=Berserker's Greaves size=32][icon=Infinity Edge size=32]: 325.8 [icon=Berserker's Greaves size=32][icon=Last Whisper size=32]: 181.286 So, a 250% dps increase for 3830g(.065 %/g), or a 40% DPS increase for 2290g(.017 %/g). [/quote] I was rather skeptical of these numbers, so I re-ran them. Taking the runes and masteries from jhoijhoi's Ashe guide [url=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/ashes-to-ashes-67331]here[/url], I come up with a level 18 attack damage of 100.6 and attack speed, with the boots, of 1.2180896. Combined with 4% crit and 10% crit damage from masteries, and we get a DPS-before-armor of (100.6*(1+.04*1.1)*1.2180896) =~ 127.932, a bit lower than your mark. I note that without the runes and masteries, Ashe's level 18 DPS-before-armor comes out well below your figure. Taking LW as our second item, we end up with (140.6*1.044*1.2180896) =~ 178.799 DPS-before-armor, again a bit lower. Taking IE instead, (180.6*(1+.29*1.6)*1.2180896) =~ 322.061 DPS-before-armor, which is pretty close to your figure. This isn't going to change your figure much, of course, but updating your spreadsheet with the new numbers I get the armor where they become equal as between 236 and 237; IE is slightly better at 236, LW is slightly better at 237. Still, as Pranzatelli has mentioned, this doesn't account for physical abilities which can't crit.[/quote]

[quote=Pranzatelli]I find the more sophisticated my simulations (factoring in masteries, runes, base items, etc.), the more the balance tips in favor of Infinity Edge. Percentage and flat armor reduction and flat armor penetration are all applied before percentage armor penetration, which devalue percentage armor penetration (Sunder, conventional armor penetration runes, Urgot's E, Black Cleaver, etc.). Even Weapons Expertise, the other method of gaining percentage armor penetration, reduces the effectiveness of Last Whisper from 40% to 36% (because they scale multiplicatively). So, lots of stuff that are very normal all devalue Last Whisper. This explains why the target needs irrationally-high armor to make it useful: all other forms of armor penetration devalue Last Whisper's effect. Infinity Edge, on the other hand, is more valuable with crit chance. By a lot. Lethality doesn't really affect the value (because it stacks additively), which is an advantage over the multiplicative stacking of percentage armor penetration. Therefore, a carry will have to NOT build flat armor penetration or reduction if they want to buy a Last Whisper, and build something else. Plus, the other stats (crit chance, crit damage, attack damage, attack speed) all scale multiplicatively off each other, increasing each others' value. Last Whisper is stuck to niche occasions and builds that revolve around it. Anyway, that's what my sims indicate.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]Imo, IE + PD + LW is basically the holy trinity of AD items.[/quote]

[quote=Pranzatelli][quote]Imo, IE + PD + LW is basically the holy trinity of AD items.[/quote] Opinion? Or assertion?[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]Err, opinion? :P It's the build all the pro players seem to use, and it seems to make the most mathematical sense too (I haven't actually worked it out because I'm lazy and slow at Maths, but that's what I'd guess looking at the stats).[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Luther3000] Imo, IE + PD + LW is basically the holy trinity of AD items. [/quote] It's also functionally the best no matter what the math says.[/quote]

[quote=Pranzatelli][quote][b]...no matter what the math says.[/b][/quote] The game functions on numbers. LoL is organized mathematically as a system. If you really don't think math is valuable in determining the worth of an item (if that's an honor only the pro players can grant), why are you wasting your time on this theorycrafting thread?[/quote]