Dr. Edmundo and Revenous Hydra/Wit's End

[quote=Re4XN]Hello, everyone. I am a [[Dr. Mundo]] Main (much to everyone's amusement, so it seems) and I wanted to discuss some items I've been experimenting with lately. Normally, I would build Full Tank Mundo (which I still do when the situation requires so), but after playing some matches where I got fed, I started to think I could do something else instead, since the enemy simply wasn't able to kill me (I build[[Sunfire Cape]] and [[Spirit Visage]] every game). First thing I thought was to build a [[Ravenous Hydra]]: the 75 AD it provides, along with the lifesteal and Mundo's [[Masochism]] (not to mention the passive), boosts Mundo's AA damage through the roof. I played 3 games with a Hydra [[Dr. Mundo]] and this item turned out to be pretty effective. However, [[Ravenous Hydra]] is VERY expensive, thus taking some time to complete, when I could've been builing something safer like a [[Randuin's Omen]]. Something else a friend of mine told me to try out was to build a [[Wit's End]]. I didn't understand it at first, but then I looked at the passive: it steals 5 MR from my target (and it stacks), making my Cleaver deal more damage. I decided to try it out and build both of these items in one game and I ended up 18/5/-- So, what I want is to hear your opinions on these items and it's viability on [[Dr. Mundo]]. I never tried this in Ranked (nor do I intend to do so, I might be crazy enough to experiment it in normals, but not in ranked), but it was certainly fun as hell to play. Any feedback would be apreciated.[/quote]

[quote=ThePreserver]I don't see [[Dr. Mundo]] doing a lot of close range autoattacking, so [[Ravenous Hydra]] sounds somewhat wasted on him when there's other damage alternatives. You could get the same or more AD|Lifesteal with another item; [[The Bloodthirster]] comes to mind here. I guess things are more apparent in game than on paper; whatever works, you know.[/quote]

[quote=Waschbaerkebab]You have to test it all :p I could imagine that this works. But I also think it depends on your matchup. Because there are champs where this wouldn't make a big sense, but otherwise champs where it comes quite useful...[/quote]

[quote=Re4XN]From my point of view, [[Dr. Mundo]] is a fighter who excels in 1vs1 fights. His E provides 100 bonus AD (not counting the missing HP %) and so, taking this into consideration, as well as his passive and role in team fights, I'd say [[Ravenous Hydra]] is better on him. Hydra's Passive gives you a huge farming potential (not even counting Mundo's W and Sunfire Cape Combo), 100% bonus HP regeneration that goes extremely well with your Passive and Cleave is very useful in team fights, as well as the active. [[The Bloodthirster]] Provides you with only 5 extra AD in comparison to the RH and it's Shield won't do Mundo any good, since he won't even be able to charge it up. 8% more life steal is not, in my opinion, worth buying the BT, which is even more expensive that the [[Ravenous Hydra]]. The way I play Mundo during a team fight is to breach the enemy defensive line and run straight at the ADC/APC (this usualy will get me focused, which is what I want). With W, Sunfire Cape, and RH's Passive/Active, I can dish out good amounts of AoE damage while focusing one target only. I wouldn't be able to do the same thing with the BT. EDIT: I am currently testing [[Ravenous Hydra]], [[Wit's End]] and [[Zeke's Herald]] on Mundo. I need opinions on Zeke's though, it seems like a good item so far.[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Re4XN]From my point of view, [[Dr. Mundo]] is a fighter who excels in 1vs1 fights.[/quote] Can get kited quite easily if you don't hit your cleavers. He's not a bad fighter, but he certainly doesn't excel in 1v1 either. Against other tanky champs, it's more likely that they tussle for a bit and then just disengage from each other with neither dying. [quote=Re4XN]His E provides 100 bonus AD (not counting the missing HP %) and so, taking this into consideration, as well as his passive and role in team fights, I'd say [[Ravenous Hydra]] is better on him. Hydra's Passive gives you a huge farming potential (not even counting Mundo's W and Sunfire Cape Combo), 100% bonus HP regeneration that goes extremely well with your Passive and Cleave is very useful in team fights, as well as the active.[/quote] Whilst in theory it may seem to make sense, in practice it becomes quite awkward, especially in higher Elos. The itemization for a [[Ravenous Hydra]] is not particularly smooth, because Mundo isn't particularly tanky at the beginning of the game (especially if your opponent carries [[ignite]]), which means you should be prioritizing tanky items first (I assume you rush [[sunfire cape]] or something of the like). Come mid-game, enemy carries start hitting their power spikes, which means you need to keep up with them through more tanky items. With the arrival of late-game, what damage you can get extra is relatively negligible compared to what your carries can already give out. Plus the fact that you simply can't get to their backlines because Mundo has no real gap closer. So in the end, you get walled by the enemy frontline and can't kill anyone with the [[ravenous hydra]]. [quote=Re4XN][[The Bloodthirster]] Provides you with only 5 extra AD in comparison to the RH and it's Shield won't do Mundo any good, since he won't even be able to charge it up. 8% more life steal is not, in my opinion, worth buying the BT, which is even more expensive that the [[Ravenous Hydra]].[/quote] Yes, even less reason to buy. [quote=Re4XN]The way I play Mundo during a team fight is to breach the enemy defensive line and run straight at the ADC/APC (this usualy will get me focused, which is what I want). With W, Sunfire Cape, and RH's Passive/Active, I can dish out good amounts of AoE damage while focusing one target only. I wouldn't be able to do the same thing with the BT.[/quote] You assume you can breach the enemy frontline, but Mundo doesn't really have a way to respond to CC, even though he has CC reduction. You'd just get disengaged and kited for days. [quote=Re4XN]EDIT: I am currently testing [[Ravenous Hydra]], [[Wit's End]] and [[Zeke's Herald]] on Mundo. I need opinions on Zeke's though, it seems like a good item so far.[/quote] Are you building them all at the same time or are you testing them in addition to his usual core build? [[Zeke's herald]] is pretty trash. CDR is nice, but the aura is basically negligible. There are better items ([[spirit visage]]).[/quote]

[quote=Re4XN]Sirell, first of all, thanks for your insight. [quote=sirell]Can get kited quite easily if you don't hit your cleavers. He's not a bad fighter, but he certainly doesn't excel in 1v1 either. Against other tanky champs, it's more likely that they tussle for a bit and then just disengage from each other with neither dying.[/quote] You are absolutely right about this one, Mundo's fighting ability depends on landing cleavers, they are his main source of damage. About getting kited... yes, it is a problem early game, especially against the likes of Jayce or Fiora, but it's nothing Mundo can't recover from. The thing with Mundo is that he has a very poor early game, whislt, for instance, Riven/Fiora have a good one, which can be a problem. After you get tanky items (Mundo's Core is [[Sunfire Cape]] and [[Spirit Visage]]) this becomes less of an issue as the game starts progressing, since you're tanky enough to handle the damage and return some as well. [quote=sirell]Whilst in theory it may seem to make sense, in practice it becomes quite awkward, especially in higher Elos. The itemization for a Ravenous Hydra is not particularly smooth, because Mundo isn't particularly tanky at the beginning of the game (especially if your opponent carries Ignite), which means you should be prioritizing tanky items first (I assume you rush Sunfire Cape or something of the like). Come mid-game, enemy carries start hitting their power spikes, which means you need to keep up with them through more tanky items. With the arrival of late-game, what damage you can get extra is relatively negligible compared to what your carries can already give out. Plus the fact that you simply can't get to their backlines because Mundo has no real gap closer. So in the end, you get walled by the enemy frontline and can't kill anyone with the Ravenous Hydra. [/quote] Yes, I understand what you mean, I've put some thought into this before I created the topic. I completely agree with you that Mundo isn't tanky early game and he has to get [[Sunfire Cape]] and [[Spirit Visage]] to be able to do anything useful. It is obvious to me that my 1st item is not going to be a [[Ravenous Hydra]], because I wouldn't be able to dish out damage to be able to kill anyone without HP and Armour/MR. What have I been doing then, since I need to keep up with the enemy team? Well, the solution for me was to get this only when I got fed and seems to go pretty alright. Last game I started my [[Ravenous Hydra]] when I was 6/1/2 (against a Lee Sin w/ [[Ignite]]). I went back to base 2 times to get it completed (which was really fast IMO). I finished that game 10/5/-- and I was able to one vs. one every single guy on their team (Quinn, Lee Sin, Malzahar, Shyvana). With a Hydra, [[Dr. Mundo]]'s farming ability and waveclear went through the roof. The passive is very good, I was able to deal a good amount of damage in team fights and finished the game with 41k. In my opinion (and I think it's needless to say), you shouldn't try to rush it unless you have a clear edge over the enemy team, but when you are, I think it is a good item. [quote=sirell]You assume you can breach the enemy frontline, but Mundo doesn't really have a way to respond to CC, even though he has CC reduction. You'd just get disengaged and kited for days.[/quote] Yes, I usually just pick Mundo when we have someone with a good engage ability, since Mundo has none (apart from walking, literally, into the enemy team throwing cleavers everywhere). When you say they would focus their CC on me, that is actually a good thing. The way I see it, Mundo is a very good "meat shield" for the team, he has a large model that can absorb skillshots and crowd control. If I die and my team scores an ace, I can say I did a decent enough job. You might be right about them disengaging me and trying to kite me, but I doubt they'll do it, since after our team engaged, there is no going back for them without consequences: if they try to retreat, they WILL lose someone. As I mentioned, I avoid being the first guy to engage the enemy team (unless I have to), I leave that to someone like [[leona]] or [[thresh]]. [quote=sirell]Are you building them all at the same time or are you testing them in addition to his usual core build? [[Zeke's Herald]] is pretty trash. CDR is nice, but the aura is basically negligible. There are better items ( [[Spirit Visage]]).[/quote] Well, I am building the Hydra in addition to my usual build, since I still want to be tank enough to be that meat shield I mentioned. However, I did try to combine [[Wit's End]] and Hydra togheter last game (the one with Lee Sin) and it worked pretty good. The AS boost increases the damage you are able to deal with [[Masochism]] on and combine that with Hydra's bonus AD, lifesteal (12%) and the Passive and you get good results. I was able to effectivly fight and kill their Quinn in a matter of seconds. Granted, I was a bit fed, but that's when I am proposing to get a Hydra. About Zeke's, I only tried it because I remember seeing it somewhere as a [[Thornmail]] replacement in a guide. 250 HP and 20% Cooldown benefit Mundo, but the item IS somewhat expensive and I can get something else instead. Once again, thanks for the info, it was really useful. I am planning to write a [[Dr. Mundo]] Guide sometime and all the info I can find helps. EDIT: Well, I just remembered there is this pretty cool item that disables turrets and fits Mundo like a glove. [[Ohmwrecker]] gives you 10% CDR, HP and Armour, things a Mundo would enjoy having AND it also disables turrets in case their team has good waveclear and you're stuck. What do you think?[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Re4XN] Yes, I usually just pick Mundo when we have someone with a good engage ability, since Mundo has none (apart from walking, literally, into the enemy team throwing cleavers everywhere). When you say they would focus their CC on me, that is actually a good thing. The way I see it, Mundo is a very good "meat shield" for the team, he has a large model that can absorb skillshots and crowd control. If I die and my team scores an ace, I can say I did a decent enough job. You might be right about them disengaging me and trying to kite me, but I doubt they'll do it, since after our team engaged, there is no going back for them without consequences: if they try to retreat, they WILL lose someone. As I mentioned, I avoid being the first guy to engage the enemy team (unless I have to), I leave that to someone like [[leona]] or [[thresh]].[/quote] I'm talking about things like [[iceborn gauntlet]] on [[ezreal]] which is up basically every 3s or [[lissandra]]'s [[ice shard]] on a 2-3s CD which will basically permakite you and prevent you from getting a superior positioning in teamfights. And from this, you ARE taking damage, so you really lose out if you just take damage at no benefit of your own. That's why Mundo sometimes has to flank to really be effective, rather than front-lining. The situation you are describing of your team managing an engage while you take CC just might not be that realistic. A lot of players are aware of how to use their abilities effectively to kite whilst saving key skills for other members of your team. [quote=Re4XN] Well, I am building the Hydra in addition to my usual build, since I still want to be tank enough to be that meat shield I mentioned. However, I did try to combine [[Wit's End]] and Hydra togheter last game (the one with Lee Sin) and it worked pretty good. The AS boost increases the damage you are able to deal with [[Masochism]] on and combine that with Hydra's bonus AD, lifesteal (12%) and the Passive and you get good results. I was able to effectivly fight and kill their Quinn in a matter of seconds. Granted, I was a bit fed, but that's when I am proposing to get a Hydra. About Zeke's, I only tried it because I remember seeing it somewhere as a [[Thornmail]] replacement in a guide. 250 HP and 20% Cooldown benefit Mundo, but the item IS somewhat expensive and I can get something else instead. Once again, thanks for the info, it was really useful. I am planning to write a [[Dr. Mundo]] Guide sometime and all the info I can find helps. EDIT: Well, I just remembered there is this pretty cool item that disables turrets and fits Mundo like a glove. [[Ohmwrecker]] gives you 10% CDR, HP and Armour, things a Mundo would enjoy having AND it also disables turrets in case their team has good waveclear and you're stuck. What do you think?[/quote] I'm personally still against [[ravenous hydra]] in general, since you don't need additional wave clear to [[sunfire cape]] and [[burning agony]], meaning the only reason to get it would be the AD and that's not really a major reason, since [[masochism]] already gives a lot of AD and his other 3 skills don't scale with AD (that's why you might occasionally see a [[liandry's torment]] instead). [[wit's end]] is an interesting buy, but again, holds the same premise of being kited. I think it's a better option than [[ravenous hydra]] due to its more defensive nature, but again, I tend to think there are better options. [[ohmwrecker]] is a niche buy with lots of potential in the mid-game, where you might have to dive a tower. The major problem I'd see with it is that it becomes rather redundant once Mundo can tank 4K damage anyway in the later-game, meaning the item usually needs to be sold for something better, making it slightly gold inefficient. Generally speaking, as long as Mundo takes tower aggro, the rest of your team shouldn't be worried anyway. I think it has the most potential out of all the items you suggested before, but not much reason to deviate out of a normal 6-item build, which is usually a combination of the following: Boots [[sunfire cape]] [[randuin's omen]] [[spirit visage]] [[banshee's veil]] [[locket of the iron solari]] [[Thornmail]] I've seen the occasional [[liandry's torment]] for damage, but other than that, no real deviation.[/quote]

[quote=Re4XN]I'll have to think about what you said on being kited, I feel like that is useful info. I have about 60 games played as [[Dr. Mundo]] and I like to think I know what I'm talking about, but I'm going to take your info into consideration, since I'm always learning new stuff. I haven't faced many problems as Mundo in team fights, but sometimes I do find the need to flank the enemy to be able to do something useful, just like you said. Also, like you mentioned, there is not much reason to deviate from the full tank Mundo build, I just played so many games with him I wanted to try something new, you know? Anyway, thanks for the information, I'm certainly going to use it :)[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Here is my guide to how to not get kited, cuz I never get. First, use [[ghost]] as your summoner spell. It easily helps against kiting and with [[enchantment: distortion]]. Second, go and get [[zephyr]]. If your champion in any way benefits from attack speed, get it. It not only allows you to get [[boots of swiftness]], it also removes together with them any kiteability from the enemy. But, get 2 defense items before you get it, as you need enough tankyness to even run at your enemy. Finally, if you still get kited, get 1 more movement speed item. Great examples for this are [[the black cleaver]] or [[trinity force]]. Then, finish off your build with 1-2 more defense items or go for mixed items like [[wit's end]].[/quote]

[quote=sirell]NicknameMy is well known for trying absolutely wacky ideas, so if anyone knows how to think outside the box, it's him (though it's not necessarily always for the better, lol). Nothing wrong with trying anything new (one of our members here makes a thing of playing On-hit [[Twisted Fate]] top lane) and it can often be super fun and satisfying to see it work in a game, even if it's probably not all that useful to ranking. Oh yeah, and Homeguard/[[teleport]] ganks are a thing more recently of late.[/quote]