Offtank Nocturne

[quote=JunSupport]That's well over 1000 range. And people starting before I'm ready is why I always talk in chat and tell them to wait. I always ping for a fight to start. Haven't really had your problem in a long time. :P[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]I guess I do play Noc a lot, and as such encounter it a lot...[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Communication and coordination wins games.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]Yeah, but saying "I'm coming to gank top, wait for me!" still doesn't change their judgement of Noc's ult range. I'm not explaining it every single game![/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=JunSupport] PsiGuard is right, there's only a few junglers who can replace Nocturne. (when you're dealing with top-tier gameplay) [[Amumu]], [[Lee Sin]], [[Cho'Gath]], [[Gangplank]], and maybe 1~2 others I'm not sure about. [/quote] Saint Vicious begs to differ. He jungles Taric and Janna and Twitch and a whole mess of champions who nobody else considers to be "Top tier" and does it at the top tier, and succeeds. He was doing jungle GP long before it became flavor of the month, and long before the changes were made to his passive. Everyone felt like it was garbage failsauce back then, and that was back before his E got buffed as well. Yet he did it at a competitive level, even used it in Dreamhack in their final match if I recall. Cho gath is good at the physical function of jungling, but I'd say he loses a bit of his flair if he's not in a solo lane. I think most people assume Cho is a fantastic choice just because Stonewall says he is, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. I've only done it once. He goes from invincible monster to a pop up, silence, and nomnom bot. Which isn't all bad I suppose. Lee Sin just a month or two ago was considered an ass jungler by top level players and now he's this OP God of stomping all games. Morde, same thing, was considered trash by most high Elo players, and then made a sudden surge. Akali, considered a poor choice until WestRice came along. Then, Voyboy learned her and a few others did as well and now she's an OP pubstomper. My point is yes, top level players know when a flavor of the month champ is strong, but they often FORGET that other champs might be strong as well. Just because they AREN'T aware that something is strong doesn't mean it's not. It just hasn't been proven to them yet. The Odd One just a few months ago felt that Trundle was the best jungle behind Nunu. Nunu got nerfed, Nocturne was this big new thing, and GP got his changes. Trundle is still Trundle though, he hasn't changed at all, and he's still one of the best. Trundle also has a very important and unique role in countering the current "super tank solo top" meta. Champs like Cho and Singed. You just ult them and suddenly they go from invincible to a target you can realistically take down. Since you jungled, your defense will be a touch lower, and taking that from the opponent's super tank will make YOU the tanky one suddenly. I think Trundle is one of the best junglers in the game right now, much better than Cho Gath. He both counters and fits into the meta game well, and that's a statement based on every single aspect of his kit.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]^ Agreed. Yeah, SV did play GP in the match for 3rd place, and played him extremely well! That match was awesome.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]And that was pre alterations as mentioned. And yeah Xenasis you seem to grasp fairly well how it works. I agreed with pretty much everything you said over the past few pages. GP in my mind is perfectly balanced right now, I'd say he's not OP but some high Elo players still feel like he is. Amumu is Amumu. Until he gets changes he will never gain or lose Viability. Strong champ forever, never OP. But... To say Trundle has no reliable CC... Pillar of Filth is absolutely one of the best skills in the game. It's Trundle's best skill for certain. You just split the enemy team in half when the fight starts. It's incredible. His ult is his #2 best skill. The fact that Trundle cannot be reliably CC'd also makes him a perfect fit for the current Meta. Just so many things. People are sleeping on Trundle for sure.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]Just wanted to add to this discussion that Trundle was my first and main jungler for a long time. When I tried jungling Noct for the first time, I immediately loved it and did significantly better. Some of a champion's "viability" or "effectiveness" depends on the player's skillset. I find that I can keep my champion alive relatively easy with most champions (can't seem to do it with Kog though), while my ganking isn't incredibly brilliant. Nocturne patched up my weakness, and I can use my strength to play him effectively. I also want to contest something said earlier. I believe Xenasis said that Noct on a team with a lot of CC is similar as Trundle on a team with little CC. This is totally not true at all. Nocturne is primarily an assassin or anti-carry, and can rip enemy carries to shreds no matter how tanky he builds. A team with 20 CC spells just make it extremely easy for him to clean up fights. By comparison, Trundle on a team with little CC is almost completely useless. You won't be able to pin the team down well enough with just a slow to win any team fights. CC wins team fights. I don't care how tanky trundle gets, you can't burst down squishies if you aren't able to keep them there. Lee Sin is my new top pick for team comps that need bulk and DPS more than burst and CC. Cho' is for when we need bulk and CC. Noct is for when we need a bit of tankiness and a lot of damage. I hardly even play Trundle anymore, I just don't find him as effective. But like I said, some of it boils down to personal skillsets and preference.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]"I also want to contest something said earlier. I believe Xenasis said that Noct on a team with a lot of CC is similar as Trundle on a team with little CC. This is totally not true at all. Nocturne is primarily an assassin or anti-carry, and can rip enemy carries to shreds no matter how tanky he builds. A team with 20 CC spells just make it extremely easy for him to clean up fights." I meant for the laning phase - as far as ganking was concerned (as that was what the conversation was about at that time). As Noc, you'd prefer extra damage if they're CC'd anyway, and as Trundle, you'd want a reliable CC since you have loads of damage. I never said put him on a team with no CC anyway, just one with little. @Duff - Ditto, I agree with everything you said :) I seemed to be the only one that thought GP was balanced when he had 5 stacks of his passive - and no, I don't play GP. It was just like a red buff that was permanently on GP. Considering he was considered horrendously bad by many before it, a red buff doesn't turn Twitch, for example, into a killing machine that's stupidly OP. If anything, they only needed to slightly nerf his Raise Morale. Pillar of Filth is one of the best abilities in the game, hands down. It's usage for counter jungling, leashing creeps for a better kill location, sight, ganking, saving allies, and more is unmatched. Fun skill - and a powerful one if you use it right.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=Xenasis] "I also want to contest something said earlier. I believe Xenasis said that Noct on a team with a lot of CC is similar as Trundle on a team with little CC. This is totally not true at all. Nocturne is primarily an assassin or anti-carry, and can rip enemy carries to shreds no matter how tanky he builds. A team with 20 CC spells just make it extremely easy for him to clean up fights." I meant for the laning phase - as far as ganking was concerned (as that was what the conversation was about at that time). As Noc, you'd prefer extra damage if they're CC'd anyway, and as Trundle, you'd want a reliable CC since you have loads of damage. I never said put him on a team with no CC anyway, just one with little. [/quote] You know, the quote tags work too.... Sry for mis-interpreting, I didn't realize your comment was limited to laning phase, though more CC can still be better if they have flash/cleanse or a good escape mechanism. Oh and I said "little CC." Twice. I never said none, because I knew that wasn't what you meant. Funny how this thread has evolved....[/quote]