"Little help" with Udyr

[quote=Bernarnar][quote=Max Carter] Come on guys, please dont fight... I'm just a noob, needing for help. [/quote] The point of a forum is for discussion ;) [quote] My build would be probally this: [[Mercury's Treads]], [[Randuin's Omen]], [[Banshee's Veil]], [[trinity force]], [[madred's bloodrazor]]/[[wriggle's lantern]], [[sunfire cape]]/[[force of nature]]/[[abyssal scepter]] [/quote] Mercs or Swiftness, yes. Randuins / Banshee's combo is nice for rounded defences too. Triforce works nicely with both Tiger and Phoenix, so I'll agree with that. Lanturn, IMO, should be your first item on any Jungler not Amumu/Nunu/Fiddle. Definitely. Bloodrazor works better with Tiger because of your AS. On Phoenix I wouldn't bother personally. Sunfire/FoN are good when you need a shot of Resist in a particular Area. I would assume something like this: [[cloth armor]] + 5 [[health potion]]/ [[vampiric scepter]] [[boots of speed]] [[wriggle's lantern]] [[heart of Gold]] And then continue on. Probably with a [[Phage]] and into what you need. [quote] I'll buy AS marks, I have AS quint, MR/lvl glyphs, and mana/5 seals. Should I get dodge runes on him? [/quote] Stonewall recommends AS Reds and Quints if you're going Phoenix (I'd still get some ArPen) and AD Reds/Quints if you're going Tiger (I'd still get ArPen). [quote] So, you guys know my build, I'll use that. I don't really like [[frozen heart]], its very good, but its expensive and dont give health. I'll try to understand: [[Tiger Stance]] If my team have less AD/Auto-Attacker and [[Phoenix Stance]] if my team have less AP/AoE? [/quote] It's more that Tiger makes you offensive, Phoenix makes you more of a Soak/Offtank, and Turtle makes you defensive further still. [quote] I'm jungling like this: phoenix - turtle - phoenix - bear - turtle - tiger mini golems - wraiths - wolf - blue - gank/back/red - keep doing this [/quote] If you're Jungling Phoenix, AS Reds and Quints (with some ArPen) and focus on getting bulky (early [[chain vest]] and [[negatron cloak]] works wonders). Later game if you have strong Mages, you could consider [[abyssal scepter]] (Really, don't get it on Tiger mains). Don't confuse this for 'being AP' though, you're very much a Melee AD, you're just either AS based, Steroid Based, or Bulk Based. The AoE From Phoenix will really do bugger all to any smart carry with a Banshee's veil. [quote] But, if i'm going to put tiger in level 5, I should jungle on the tiger style, right? Priority is Main damage choose - bear - turtle - second damage source? edit: With this build, wich stance would deal more damage? The AS bonus + Tiger or the AS bonus on Phoenix proc? [/quote] Tiger Jungling is faster. Phoenix Jungling is [i]slightly[/i] healthier but IMO makes you less of a threat with lv4 Ganks. Personally I'm a Tiger/Phoenix Hybrid who ignores Turtle for max speed. More Damage would have to be Tiger. You're AS based so using the same build, your DPS would be higher. Phoenix pesters people in an AoE and works better if you prioritise defensive items and AS, whereas Tiger works best if you add AD.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I'm eagerly awaiting your jungle time.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]I don't want to quote and sift through that entire thing to find the section I want but, phoenix is actually faster by about 10 seconds. No offence but you, Bernarnar, have quite a few things wrong.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Lugignaf] No offence but you, Bernarnar, have quite a few things wrong.[/quote] Yup, I believe that is the case :/[/quote]

[quote=Bernarnar]What constitutes finishing the route? Lol. Well, I've done my own route with three different set-ups. I don't own ArP Quints, so I had to improvise. Double golems > Wraiths > Wolves > Home > blue > Wraiths > Red. [[greater Mark of Desolation]] [[Greater Quintessence of Strength]] 5:05 [[greater mark of Alacrity]] [[greater quintessence of Strength]] 5:05 [[greater mark of desolation]] [[greater quintessence of alacrity]] 5:01, with a slight hickup at Blue buff, so maybe 5:00. So whilst saving a whopping 5 seconds on a sustained Jungle route, I still don't believe that AS Runes are worth Taking unless you're in a jungle race or something. I Think the extra damage during ganks and fights would be more worthwhile. My Jungle Runepage is staying as ArP, Armour, MR/L and AD. [quote] Phoenix is faster [/quote] I've always been under the impression that Phoenix Jungles slower. I'll remove that part from my Posts if it's incorrect. Personally I've found them to be about the same time but with Tiger better suited to an early Dragon, which is why I use Tiger and phoenix over Turtle. Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQjVmQi3QKw Tiger gets lv5 at 4:45 Phoenix at 5:05 10 seconds faster?[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Ah. See, I'm talking "To level 4. Blue to golems" Phoenix is 10 seconds faster due to how it clears camps. Tiger is better for ganking early due to the damage. Going back a bit, how does [[Phoenix Stance]] make him more of a soak? It's not giving him any way to deflect the damage being thrown at him.[/quote]

[quote=Bernarnar]I'm not saying that, I'm saying that your DPS is lower if you're opting for adding AD temporarily instead of persistent AS, So IMO Building bulkier is a better option on Phoenix and adding AD on Tiger.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf]Taking aggressive routes, Phoenix is 10 seconds faster. That's what I was trying to get at.[/quote]

[quote=Max Carter][[Greater Mark of Alacrity]] + [[Greater Quintessence of Alacrity]] (26% AS) 0.78 hits per second with 60 damage = 1 second / 0.78 AS = 1,28 seconds to 1 hit = 4 hits = 240 damage in 5,12 seconds [[Greater Mark of Strength]] + [[Greater Quintessence of Strength]] (15 AD) 0.62 hits per second with 75 damage = 1 second / 0.62 AS = 1,61 seconds to 1 hit = 4 hits = 320 damage in 6,44 seconds lets compare it AS runes: 180 damage in 3,84 seconds (3 hits) - 1 phoenix proc - stronger AD runes: 150 damage in 3,22 seconds (2 hits) - 0 phoenix proc or AS runes: 300 damage in 6,40 seconds (5 hits) - 1 phoenix proc - same AD runes: 300 damage in 6,44 seconds (4 hits) - 1 phoenix proc - same or AS runes: 240 damage in 5,12 seconds (4 hits) - 1 phoenix proc - stronger AD runes: 225 damage in 4,83 seconds (3 hits) - 1 phoenix proc - or AS runes: 540 damage in 11,52 seconds (9 hits) - 3 phoenix procs - stronger AD runes: 525 damage in 11,27 seconds (7 hits) - 2 phoenix procs for me, AS is better, you can proc more phoenix, and the 15 AD is not very good, as the math says... But armor penetration is very hard to calculate, so... An with Tiger AD runes versus Phoenix AS runes the result, in 11 seconds, phoenix will do something like 1100 around damage and tiger will deal 1300 around damage. Calculating bot sides with only 1 activation, 75 AD for tiger, 60 AD for phoenix (don't couting the AD/AP bonus from phoenix) and 0 defenses. And whit no itens... That took long to calculate '-'[/quote]

[quote=Searz]You'll want at least 10 TOTAL ArP on all junglers.[/quote]