Stealth remake, Eve gets her stun back,...

[quote=Jebus McAzn]All answers from Xypherous or Shurelya. There is an explanation by Xypherous in the beginning and then a Q&A following. Following up from last time, the general problem(s) with long term stealth was: 1. There was no way for the opponents to get an inkling of how clever the stealth player was being, and thus there was no good way to get a sense of how that player operates. 2. Stealth is claustrophobic in the way that it makes you play. 3. Stealth gives very powerful scouting information while simultaneously hiding that information from your opponent. We tried some iterations past the first few tests, with Paranoia, alternate resource bars, footprints, phasing and mark systems but in the end, we settled on the current system because it was the simplest solution for long-term stealth. In short: "Everyone has reduced Oracles, but Evelynn and Twitch are perma-stealthed." Some Partial Stealth Details Disclaimer: I fully understand this destroys a *lot* of the current stealth gameplay changes. Unfortunately, through lots of iteration, I was unable to capture the feeling of pure invisibility while in stealth while having fun gameplay. In the end, I decided to opt for a very simple system that was highly understandable over some more fiddling mechanics. 1. Evelynn and Twitch are permanently stealthed when they rank their level one stealth abilities. However, Evelynn and Twitch can be seen when they are within X units of an enemy champion (Slightly under vision range), or when they are within a true sight radius. If they attack, they are revealed briefly for 2 seconds before going back into stealth. This 'X' is being adjusted for feel between the two champions. 'X' is smaller than champion vision radius, so you can "stalk" an opposing champion, but it will be farther away. 2. Evelynn and Twitch have a "sight gem" above opponent's, telling them when the enemy can see them or not and whether they are "safe" (green sight gem), "warning - you are close to being seen, but still unseen" (yellow sight gem) or "being seen" (red sight gem.) Results Long Term Stealth, in this case, has been removed as a primary initiation mechanic but allows Eve and Twitch to cross minion vision and regular sight bubbles with impunity and sneak into brush patches by circle/stalk their opponents. Their opponents can likewise spot-check areas with their own reveal radius and create zones were stealth characters "probably aren't, otherwise they'd be seen." The sight gem allows the Eve/Twitch player to take much of the guesswork out of figuring out when they were being seen or revealed and allows them to put more of their thoughts on clever positioning and sneaking around their opponents, especially for lane ganks. This also lets us make them more combat oriented characters that don't immediately blow up on start. In general, this stealth has proven to be very difficult to use but allows characters to have some bluff gameplay and interesting circle/stalk gameplay in testing. Your characters can still scout, but at a highly diminished effectiveness (due to the increased range.) In team fights, stealth proved to be less effective than before, so the character's combat viabilities are being looked at through reworks/remakes. What is blocking us on releasing this: 1. There's a pretty big problem with the concept known as Oracle-Sweeping. We'd want to replace Oracle's elixir with someone that doesn't cause such weird gameplay but as to what would be a *good* replacement is a little up in the air. 2. General particle/kit rebalancing work - We need to heavily redo Evelynn and Twitch's kits and that comes different visuals and graphical effects. What I am testing right now - Additionally Sight wards as being partial motion sensors - Sight wards signalling when a hostile is moving nearby? "Robot Chicken" scout drone "Wriggles" for supports? I probably shouldn't do this but as compensation, some sneaks.. Evelynn can have her stun back, because now you have advanced warning of her when she steps in. She might need a short-step-stun in order to successfully initiate. Testing required. Twitch has proven to be a slightly harder problem in internal testing. As an aside: Hate spike is now awesome (for me, at least). Evelynn now has Champion prioritizing Lurker Spines. This makes her lane less bad. As usual, feel free to ask questions for a little bit as I stick around. I don't know all the details of the full remake (as Live better understands that new environment). Sorry for the delay, but with Orianna/Champion pipeline and such, this has been somewhat of a lower priority for me. [quote]How will this, if it does, affect shaco?[/quote] It will not initially. Only long term stealth abilities will be changed. The others will probably be reworded as "invisiblity" to distinct the two. Short term tactical stealths are in a much better place currently. However, items that reveal stealth may be broadened a tad and Oracles may be on the block for being removed, so that will tangentially affect him. [quote]How does permanent stealth keep them from being over-powered?[/quote] Read part 2: where if they are within 'X' units of an enemy champion, they are revealed. In short, every champion has a slightly weaker version of oracles, but Eve and Twitch are always stealthed. [quote]Eve, being weaker in melee[/quote] We're addressing this with some kit stuff. For example, giving Evelynn a medium range harass ability (Lurker Spines) allows her to flit in and out of her "revealed" radius to harass opponents while being slippery and hard to find. Giving Evelynn a short-hop on ravage allows her to close the gap slightly faster, etc. [quote]Is Lee Sin going to have his "E" ability changed? I mean, the part where he reveals stealthed enemies since you will be able to see them when they are next to you. Or are you guys thinking on keeping him the way that he is just to counter other stealths like Teemo's, Vayne's and Shaco's?[/quote] Lee Sin should be fine just countering the short-duration stealth abilities. 'E' after all, is excellent for sweeping for Vayne's and Akalis. [quote]Will we be able to see wards as we are able to see the champs with-in a certain distance?[/quote] If the opponent has a pink ward, Evelynn may not be able to spot pink wards, but she *will* know if an enemy champion can see her, regardless of *how* they are seeing her. [quote]This looks pretty awesome, and seems like it's being well-received, but what about stealth as an escape mechanic? I can't count the times I've lost an eve or twitch when they run from backdooring a tower and stealth into the jungle, and annoying as it is, it seems like one of their more attractive features. Is the difference between the regular-vision and stealth-vision bubbles small enough that this won't be affected, or what?[/quote] Its still usable if you juke with it. You can fake going one way through a brush (since they cant see you at all in brush unless they're in it) and try to juke your way out of range to be out of their vision bubble In addition, these characters are getting some mechanics to help them out in general. Evelynn's new stun will not be tied to stealth for example. [quote]what about stealth as an escape mechanic?[/quote] Stealth as an escape mechanic will suffer quite a bit, but if Evelynn can open up the gap (even temporarily) to her vision radius units, she'll just disappear to the enemy. [quote]Should we expect any changes to Evelynn's passive with this remake?[/quote] Yes [quote]Doesn't this negate Teemo's passive to the point of uselessness? What's the point of stealthing after five seconds if all anyone has to do is walk up to you? And what about Shaco and Vayne?[/quote] Let me iterate, only long term stealth on Eve and Twitch will be affected by this change. Teemo will be reclassified as being 'invisible' after 5 seconds. [quote]I liked the stealth mechanic used with Lanaya Templar Assassin from Dota, which is you can stealth but moving while stealthed breaks it. It would be neat if an eve or twitch would stay invis if they are standing still no matter what the range the enemy is. Then you can position and wait like a spider to strike.[/quote] I tried that for a while (standing still has a lower reveal range), but the spider-waiting gameplay was *really really frustrating to play against*. [quote]With the new stealth, what will the level up incentives be?[/quote] They will be passive/actives. The new stealths will be coupled with other utility spells. We're trying a few things in the slot. For example, Twitch's Ambush in testing right now is a passive/active. His passive is stealth. The active is gains X% Aspd, for 7 seconds. Fairly straightforward. [quote]How will stealth reveal work vs stealthed champs? For instance 2 twitches, will they just reveal each other when in range?[/quote] Yes. [quote]Will the marker still show?? Is the marker ON Twitch/Eve or on top of all enemy champions individually?.. if it's the first case, Eve and Twitch are going to be almost inmune to Facecheck as they will have a natural derector of enemies in brushes.... if it's the second one, Eve and Twitch's stealth will become useless when trying to scout bushes (as the enemy will see them without them having the knowledge of being watched.)[/quote] The marker appears on top of *enemy* champions. Unfortunately, this diminishes Evelynn's capacity to brush check. I believe we're testing Evelynn with a utility spell that will enable her to brush check at a distance. (Similar to how Anivia's ice wall can be used to brush check) [quote]How will 2 perma stealth interact? Will the gem singal that the other is close and when in range just reveal each other? or will 2 twitches be exempt from revealing each other?[/quote] You only see the gems if you can see the other person. So twitch would be able to see the other twitch if you were in range. It applies directly to who can see you or not. Example: Twitch A is in brush. Twitch B approaches Twitch A. Twitch A seems a gem over Twitch B, but Twitch B cannot see Twitch A and therefore cannot see a sight gem. [quote]One question.....why? Not that stealth is being reworked, but why is stealth being reworked so drastically?[/quote] I don't disagree with you that we have a lot of things that need to be looked at. However, Stealth has been on the back burner for a *long time*. I assure you that we are aware of everything that you've brought up and we have other designers who are aware of those issues or actively working on them. Additionally, if this stealth system works out well, this enables us to open design space for more stealth. We'll see. For example, Guinsoo is looking at Shen right now and Shurelia is looking at healing right now. Let me know if there are things that we are unaware of though. [quote]if the marker lets stealth characters know when they can be seen even if by wards do you think this might be used to exploit ward hunting,also if oracle's is removed how will we be able to remove wards/mushroom's/jack in the box[/quote] Gems only appear on top of enemy champions within 1400 units, so you'll need an enemy champion nearbythat you can see to be able to "ward hunt" with this. [quote]since you deal with the champion remakes, shurelia, how are you going to deal with twitch's "Q" ?[/quote] In general, the way twitch's kit works is fine. It rewards attack speed by giving you more stacks of his true-damage passive the more attacks you can get in. And with more stacks comes more effective slows and nukes from debilitating poison and expunge respectively. [quote]Twitch normally didn't itemize a WHOLE lot of attack speed though because he got so much with his invis (the attack speed buff lasted longer the closer twitch's stealth timer came to running out) So I guess my question is: how are you going to reconcile the fact that twitch's AS steroid (which he desparately needs) doesn't really mechanically work anymore due to the stealth changes while developing a solution that maintains his "flavour?" (twitch has never really been a champion who relies on knowing when to cast his spells . . . he's all about positioning. so, while a more active "Q" may be cool, it could throw off his flavour completely) (Also, just nerfing the AS bonus but making it constant doesn't seem overly helpful since twitch tended to utilize that spell for temporary BIG boosts to AS.)[/quote] Right now internally, Twitch's Q gives you the stealth passive at 1 point, then grants you active attack speed when used. He's going to be an assassin with carry qualities.... I would see him as an inverse Vayne. [quote]Eve getting a built in flash AND a stun? Looks like I'll still hug the tower when she is on the enemy team.[/quote] Evelynn's dash-stun is currently the same range as Ravage. [quote]Just curious, if Eve or Twitch enters into the stealth visibility range, do they have to enter the warning (yellow) state of vision or stealthed (red) state of vision to become stealthed again?[/quote] If Eve and Twitch haven't attacked, the instant they step of out the detection range, they will become stealthed again. If Eve and Twitch have attacked, they'll need to wait 2 seconds before they can become stealth. [quote]Eve getting a built in flash AND a stun? Looks like I'll still hug the tower when she is on the enemy team.[/quote] A short hop is a short hop. Think Trundle's Q in how Trundle steps forward to bite the opponent at 250 range. [quote]Eve getting a support esq spell to brushcheck? She needs a tiny initiation to land stuns under new stealth? Since you mentioned anivia's wall which is similar to Trundle's Pillar(which provides a debuff around it) What about something along the lines of Armor/MR reduction near this 'thing' and a second activation to hop over to it Similar to Jarvan or Lee Sin's abilities that move them towards other stuff. Or something of the sort. Even lowered Damage could work as a way to make her a little sturdier (Artificially) in a fight. And Please do think about the Jungle, there is an alarming lack of non tanky junglers currently considered viable. Eve would be a nice addition to Nocturn as "the only jungler that doesn't end up tanking"[/quote] Currently she has a "shadow dispersion" move that performs similarly to a non-stealth detecting flare. [quote]Xypherous, will things that reveal sight, namely Orianna's Ball reveal a stealthed champ near it?[/quote] No, things that normally reveal sight do not reveal stealthed champions. Evelynn and Twitch will be revealed when they are within things with true sight or when they are within X units of an enemy champion. [quote]If you remove Oracle's, are you going to provide a replacement for support players who like to be perma-Oracled and run around scouting for wards? If not, why not?[/quote] Ward-sweeping is viewed as a detriment to our game currently. It's one of the major problems we have to solve before this can be released as the status of Oracles is contentious. [quote]Lets say twitch can be seen by sona in lane. Can a kog maw, who is behind sona by a good amount, see the twitch as well? Or is he still stealthed to kog maw?[/quote] Once an enemy champion sees you, he shares that vision with his team, so everyone will see you. You will see the sight gem flare 'red' as everyone can now see you. [quote]I think that teamfighting with these new mechanics are going to cause some really interesting positioning strategies to emerge... especially for getting fights going near brush.[/quote] In general, teamfighting has proven to be less interesting with stealth, but overall moving and positioning (especially in Jungle or TT) has proven to be much more complex for the stealth character. [quote]Will Evelynn be keeping the on-death healing from Malice & Spite. That healing is the #1 thing that makes her viable in team fights lategame.[/quote] That was removed, but she is given a powerful short duration shied (~2 seconds) upon casting her ulti which will reward players for stalking close to champions and attacking without using the ulti to close. [quote]so it's similar to hawkshot? if so does the enemy team see any sort of graphic to indicate that a skill has been used to reveal terrain?[/quote] Its instant. (Does not travel) [quote]Did you ever think about making stealth be the champions passive ability? Therefore requiring no activation?[/quote] I think we wanted the level 1 gank attempt to feel as if it costed something, and that's why it's a level 1 passive/active. Especially the free smite-steal at blue at rank 1.[/quote]

[quote=caucheka]i knew most of this already but it all sounds nice. i'm glad they aren't messing with the other stealth.[/quote]

[quote=theBMB]very interesting changes, can't say for sure how they'll go until I see it in game.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]-reserves- [h1][color=#00ff00]Okay, I read all these already last night. This is this gist of it.[/color][/h1] [color=#ffff00][b]1. Shaco, Akali, Vayne, and Teemo will be unaffected. [/b][/color] Their stealth abilities reclassified as "Invisibility" because Riot considers short-duration invisibility to be balanced as well as fun. [color=#ffff00][b]2. New stealth is permanent.[/b][list][/color] [*] It's the passive to a Q/W/E ability. [*] If you attack, there's a 2 seconds cooldown. [*] Enemy champions can see you if you get within X range. If you move away without attack, you'll auto-stealth again without a cooldown trigger. [*] Minions/Sight Wards cannot see you. [*] Wards may get a 2nd alert for detecting movement. [*] Nothing was said about Vision wards; they'll probably be kept since they're not as good for ward-sweeping. [/list] [color=#ffff00][b]3. Stealth champion players will see sight-gems above enemy champions that indicate whether or not the enemies can see them.[/b][/color][list] [*] Sight Gems appear when stealth champion is within 1400 range. [*] Sight Gems will have 3 indicators. Green (you're unseen), Yellow (you're close to Red), Red (you're visible) [*] There will likely be a particle indicator so Color-blind folks can use it too. (Like closed = unseen, half-open = danger, open = you're visible) [/list] [color=#ffff00][b]4. Oracles are likely to be removed.[/b][/color][list] [*] Wiping out wards slows down the game. Riot doesn't like that. [*] Oracles will no longer be needed to counter long-duration stealth. [*] Shaco/Akali/Vayne/Teemo are all going to be indirectly buffed. [*] Xypherous and Riot want to replace Oracles with something to be used against stealth-champions, but are not sure what. [/list] [color=#ffff00][b]5. If two stealth champions happened to cross paths. They would both end up seeing each other.[/b][/color] 5b. If one is in the brush, the other stealth champion will not notice them unless/until they enter the brush or is attacked by the brush-hidden stealth champion. 5c. Yes, if Twitches just happened to ran into each other and killed one another, it would be hilarious. [color=#ffff00][b]6. Evelynn rework:[/b][/color] A. She's getting a short 200~250 range hop built into her stun for easier initiation. B. She's getting a "shadow dispersion" type skill that will allow her to scout brushes C. She'll be getting a new passive! D. Malice and Spite's healing effect is removed in exchange for a rewarding shield-type effect. E. She will have her stun back, but it will not be attached to her stealth. [color=#ffff00][b]7. Twitch rework:[/b][/color] A. Passive is fine. Apparently, his poison does true damage. (I never noticed) B. He's getting a new ultimate. C. Xypherous finds Twitch harder to balance because he's ranged stealth, unlike Evelynn. edit: Also, Expunge will be reworked as his Ultimate, Spray and Pray is being renamed into Piercing Bolt and made your E for a sniper-barrage style harass and combat skill. [color=#ffff00][b]8. Stealth was not made into a "Passive" ability because level1 ganks would be too strong.[/b][/color] 8b. Xypherous felt, the permanent stealth needed to feel like it costed something to be used for a gank. This probably means the other abilities will be much stronger, making it actually a serious decision to choose stealth over other skills. 8c. Imagine Eve with stealth AND stun at level1. Easy jungle buff steals too.[/quote]

[quote=th3BlackAngel]tldr plox?[/quote]

[quote=B-Wong][quote=th3BlackAngel] tldr plox? [/quote] Passive permastealth. Within certain range you can see stealth. Will show reticule if they can see you. If you're in combat, wait 2 seconds for stealth again.[/quote]

[quote=Dante Rebellion]friggin love Jun's summary xD! I like it! Dante approves![/quote]

[quote=wRAthoFVuLK]Pretty nice rework it sounds.[/quote]

[quote=Rudmed]Yeah, I like the sound of it, this way stealth champs aren't so anti-friendly to the newer players.[/quote]

[quote=Chaotic Bliss]Im loving this. Many times Ive played my beloved Evelynn at 30, and get QQ'd and Raged at. This will make her viable again. Evelynn my love, I shalst return to you[/quote]