Vynertje's Support AMA and advice thread

[quote=HiFromBuddha][quote=I want to be a Blitzball]Should you take [[Exhaust]] most of the time or [[Ignite]]? Watching any league, I see people run [[Ignite]] even when their enemy can blow your adc up in an instant. Against what champions would you recommend [[Exhaust]] and when should you take [[Ignite]]?[/quote] I always go for the kill. I take [[ignite]] when I can, and I firmly believe that the mid laner should be the one with [[exhaust]], granted if the match-ups call for it. Of course, if the mid laner wants [[ignite]], then I take [[exhaust]] because the support is everyone's bitch. In all seriousness, it's match-ups. If you are playing against an assassin as a mid laner, then you should take [[exhaust]]. I mean, it only makes sense that the lane with the biggest kill threat has the ability which nullifies the opponent's ability to instantly kill. If you are simply playing against someone you won't die to often but you yourself can kill with ease, then you should take [[ignite]]. As the support, I'm just reactionary to what the mid laner wants. I pretty much always end up with [[exhaust]] because I feel like every team needs an [[exhaust]] with a few exceptions depending on the enemy's team comp. I just prefer [[ignite]] a lot more as it both allows you to secure kills easier as well as nullifying [[heal]]. Also, it works very well as a counterpick to some lanes, such as against a [[Soraka]] or against a [[Twitch]].[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Okay so I'm getting my mic today after it was stuck in customs for 2 weeks, so I am going to start working on the warding guide right now. If there are any things you'd like to know about vision control, please let me know and I'll be sure to implement it into the vidoe itself![/quote]

[quote=lanilwow]It's about time!!! No actual question... just that comment. =p[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Vynertje]If there are any things you'd like to know about vision control, please let me know and I'll be sure to implement it into the vidoe itself![/quote] I don't know if all of this will be within scope given that this is an AMA about Supports and or maybe you will be covering it already, but some things I've been thinking about. 1) I've seen pro games where the map is lit up like a Christmas Tree with wards. Is that everyone going back and buying a stack of wards? Do you buy the stacks to keep up constant vision or only when their is an objective to contest? Would you prioritize wards over an item if you are not support? 2) When would you suggest upgrading your warding trinket as a non-support? Last item? 3) Why would you by [[Greater Stealth Totem]] vs [[Greater Vision Totem]]? 4) 3 minute mark still a good time to drop a ward at one of the lane entrances to watch for a gank or are most junglers ganking later than that. IIRC [[Rek'sai]] could gank at 3:10, but with two rounds of damage nerfs that may not be the case any longer. 5) [[Scrying Orb]] or [[Farsight Orb]] vs wards? Seems like a lot of high level ADCs are grabbing Scrying Orbs over wards so they can get vision of champs that run into bushes or to just scan a bush before going through it to avoid getting picked. I guess my question is how do you see or how would you recommend they be used in terms of the vision control game?[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=VexRoth][quote=Vynertje]If there are any things you'd like to know about vision control, please let me know and I'll be sure to implement it into the vidoe itself![/quote] I don't know if all of this will be within scope given that this is an AMA about Supports and or maybe you will be covering it already, but some things I've been thinking about. 1) I've seen pro games where the map is lit up like a Christmas Tree with wards. Is that everyone going back and buying a stack of wards? Do you buy the stacks to keep up constant vision or only when their is an objective to contest? Would you prioritize wards over an item if you are not support? 2) When would you suggest upgrading your warding trinket as a non-support? Last item? 3) Why would you by [[Greater Stealth Totem]] vs [[Greater Vision Totem]]? 4) 3 minute mark still a good time to drop a ward at one of the lane entrances to watch for a gank or are most junglers ganking later than that. IIRC [[Rek'sai]] could gank at 3:10, but with two rounds of damage nerfs that may not be the case any longer. 5) [[Scrying Orb]] or [[Farsight Orb]] vs wards? Seems like a lot of high level ADCs are grabbing Scrying Orbs over wards so they can get vision of champs that run into bushes or to just scan a bush before going through it to avoid getting picked. I guess my question is how do you see or how would you recommend they be used in terms of the vision control game?[/quote] 1) They usually keep a decent amount of wards up at all times, but as far as I know they usually go back about 1-2 minutes before an objective like dragon/baron spawns and all get 2/3 wards to make sure they have ALL around the objective warded and then it'll look like a Christmas tree indeed. 2 and 3) Depends, the new [[greater stealth totem]] is a really popular upgrade for mid/top in which case its really efficient to buy somewhere in the mid game when you're contesting objectives (also because its super cheap). The nice thing is that you get a lot of wards for only 250g which means it is really cost efficient. If you're getting red trinket instead as mid/top laner I'd wait till last before upgrading it, unless you really need the stealth detection (vs akali) and your team is not getting it. For jungle I'd recommend upgrading your red trinket somewhere in the mid-late game. Somewhat depends on your specific champion: some supportive junglers like [[elise]] can get it relatively early (~20 minutes) but others will want to skip it to last. As ADC I'd wait till last for sure. 4) You didn't really ask a question, but hoping I understand what you were trying to say: 3:30-4:00 is what I usually aim for. Junglers right now need to clear 4 camps before they can base and get their jungle item and very few champions gank immediately after getting level 3. However, some junglers (especially j4, but also shaco and lee to some extent) can level 2 gank very effectively so you might want to keep that in mind as well. Got to add though that I usually just look at other lanes, compare the position of the minion wave to mine and try to guess where the jungler will be next and ward mine only once I see that I'm really overextended. 5) its main use is to avoid facechecking or getting caught. For example, if you're thinking they might be at baron you can use it to make sure they are at it instead of baiting it. Basically its good to use when you have no clue where they are but have some suspicions and want to be sure you're safe.[/quote]

[quote=Janitsu]Do you do double golems before going to a lane?[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Krugs* If you can, you should. Some supports aren't very good at taking it though because they are very slow in which case you may want to reconsider taking it because it might be better to just fastpush and get level 2 first that way instead of taking a metric shitton of damage.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Vynertje] 1) They usually keep a decent amount of wards up at all times, but as far as I know they usually go back about 1-2 minutes before an objective like dragon/baron spawns and all get 2/3 wards to make sure they have ALL around the objective warded and then it'll look like a Christmas tree indeed. 2 and 3) Depends, the new [[greater stealth totem]] is a really popular upgrade for mid/top in which case its really efficient to buy somewhere in the mid game when you're contesting objectives (also because its super cheap). The nice thing is that you get a lot of wards for only 250g which means it is really cost efficient. If you're getting red trinket instead as mid/top laner I'd wait till last before upgrading it, unless you really need the stealth detection (vs akali) and your team is not getting it. For jungle I'd recommend upgrading your red trinket somewhere in the mid-late game. Somewhat depends on your specific champion: some supportive junglers like [[elise]] can get it relatively early (~20 minutes) but others will want to skip it to last. As ADC I'd wait till last for sure. 4) You didn't really ask a question, but hoping I understand what you were trying to say: 3:30-4:00 is what I usually aim for. Junglers right now need to clear 4 camps before they can base and get their jungle item and very few champions gank immediately after getting level 3. However, some junglers (especially j4, but also shaco and lee to some extent) can level 2 gank very effectively so you might want to keep that in mind as well. Got to add though that I usually just look at other lanes, compare the position of the minion wave to mine and try to guess where the jungler will be next and ward mine only once I see that I'm really overextended. 5) its main use is to avoid facechecking or getting caught. For example, if you're thinking they might be at baron you can use it to make sure they are at it instead of baiting it. Basically its good to use when you have no clue where they are but have some suspicions and want to be sure you're safe.[/quote] Appreciate, the insights Vynertje. You did interpret my question/not question #4 correctly. :-) [quote=Vynertje] Got to add though that I usually just look at other lanes, compare the position of the minion wave to mine and try to guess where the jungler will be next and ward mine only once I see that I'm really overextended. [/quote] Could you expand on this idea? What I'm interpreting this as is look at the map and if my team is pushing in another lane you would most likely expect the enemy jungler to show up there. Is that correct?[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]God fucking damnit, I just wrote a 5 paragraph answer to this and then mobafire timed out and I lost everything. Will try to remember what I wrote down. In short, it is simply a 'skill' called gank prediction which is essentially a part of map awareness. It means that you use all kinds of information to predict where the enemy jungler is most likely to go next: [i]In other words; you try to place yourself in the shoes of the enemy jungler[/i] 1. The position of the lane (also known as the amount of pressure on a lane). If the enemy laner is pressuring hard he will push, pretty much no exceptions. In that case the enemy jungler will be more likely to gank that lane over a lane that is pushed to the enemy turret. This also applies to other lanes, if 2 of your lanes are being pushed back while top is pressuring himself, top is most likely to recieve ganks. In high elo this can also mean the enemy jungler will invade your jungler on the bot side as your allies cannot come to help. This is something to be careful of as jungler with 3 losing lanes. That's also why defensive wards are so important when losing. 2. The amount of gank support a lane can bring or the amount of escapes a lane has. If you're playing leblanc you're likely to get ignored by the enemy jungler, while a viktor without flash will certainly recieve some attention. Especially if the enemy mid is someone like orianna instead of mordekaiser. 3. The last known position of their jungler; if you have a ward deep in the enemy jungle you can use that to see in what direction he is moving, again limiting the amount of gank options (for example, you see the enemy jungler with your ward at raptors/wraiths [who is blue side] move towards the bottom half of the jungle - in this case you know he's more likely to gank top/mid than bot lane in the first minute. If he's low hp you'll also know he won't be able to gank before he bases meaning you're safe for at least some time. This knowledge is really important when playing against junglers who can avoid standard lane wards, e.g. eve, panth, rammus (because of stealth/long range engage/super movementspeed steroids) so these deep wards at jungle camps are really important when playing against these types of junglers. 4. Some junglers have a 'standard' gank at level 6. For example, once pantheon hits level 6 he usually wants go gank bot (rarely mid) and transition a doublekill into a dragon. Other junglers like amumu have a very similar strategy. 5. Flashes down? You're more likely to get ganked again! A good jungler will not just blow a flash, but he'll make sure he at least kills you once in the next 5 minutes. Especially when you're overextended without flash you just NEED to expect a gank, so either ask for a countergank if you know you can 2v2, or back off. 6. Lane behaviour: especially when playing against someone like eve/panth you can try and analyse the enemies' behaviour to guess whether their junger may be around: if they play passive for 5 minutes and then suddenly go aggressive it is VERY likely that the enemy jungler may be around. In that case most people will catch the bait but smart players will back off in time. TLDR: You want to use all the information you're getting from either wards/enemies/your own team to estimate the likelyness of your lane to be ganked over other lanes. [i]I'm sure there's more to this but I had to keep it kinda short because I had to write it again. If something is unclear, feel free to ask. I'll try and include this in the warding guide that is now in the works.[/i][/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]Thanks for retyping all of that, Vynertje. It is good information. :-) I still have a lot of work to do to improve as jungle as well as support and the information above goes both ways (good for jungles as well as lanes to think about). I have been working on getting deep wards in the enemy jungle as jungler and support and it has definitely paid off in terms of knowing what I need to be worrying about at any given moment.[/quote]