Vynertje's Support AMA and advice thread

[quote=Chawoora]About [[Thresh]]...hmmmm...just a Bronze player but I thought I was decent with him. [b]Take a point in E First?[/b] I will usually take Q if a invade or fight breaks out, but otherwise Q and W seem rather useless at level 1. The passive alone on E seems to be worth the point. [b]Max E First, Then Q, then W?[/b] So you say to max Q first? Levels in E increase the passive damage, plus the slow and damage of the active (but not the cooldown and increase the mana costs). I max Q second mostly for the cooldown reduction (extra damage is a bonus). The shield increase on W is nice, but not something I prioritize. [b]Start with [[Ancient Coin]] and build into [[Talisman of Ascension]]?[/b] The negatives that I see with this is that Talisman is not really a tanky item (decent health regen...and the active is great). The problems I see with [[Relic Shield]] are 1) coordinating last hitting with the adc is tough 2) Thresh's slow attack animation without the execute make last hitting tough and 3) using my stacked Flay passive to last hit means I am not using it to bop the enemy on the head. And on a related subject...[b]Got any tips on using the [[Face of the Mountain]] active?[/b] Of the 3 support items, this is the one where I often get to the end of the game and realize that I never used the active. Do you cast it on yourself? Do you cast it on your ADC for the shield? Do you cast it on your engager for the shield and damage? Is it best cast on an AD or AP champ? Clearly throwing it on somebody is better than just sitting there.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=MissMaw][quote=utopus]Q has a stupid low CD when it's maxed and you have some CDR. You can seriously get off like, probably 4-5 hooks in a long, drawn out team fight. Maxed Q also does a lot more damage than maxed E :P[/quote]When do you really need 5 hooks in a teamfight? :P Besides, teamfights happen later, and if that's why you max Q, you might as well max it second, no? I feel like maxing Q in lane will indeed lead to you having more hooks - more fights - but then how can you fight with your weak auto-attack...[/quote] Its also super good in midgame, usually the first major fights already happen in midgame around your level 6-9. You usually have sufficient damage anyway, the damage differential isn't that massive.[/quote]

[quote=Blian]Any reason why people tend to build [[Face of the Mountain]] on [[Annie]] and even go for [[Warmogs]] after [[Sightstone]] recently?[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Blian]Any reason why people tend to build [[Face of the Mountain]] on [[Annie]] and even go for [[Warmogs]] after [[Sightstone]] recently?[/quote] Dunno about warmogs, but face of the mountain allows you to stack your Q on minions.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy][quote=Vynertje][quote=MissMaw][quote=utopus]Q has a stupid low CD when it's maxed and you have some CDR. You can seriously get off like, probably 4-5 hooks in a long, drawn out team fight. Maxed Q also does a lot more damage than maxed E :P[/quote]When do you really need 5 hooks in a teamfight? :P Besides, teamfights happen later, and if that's why you max Q, you might as well max it second, no? I feel like maxing Q in lane will indeed lead to you having more hooks - more fights - but then how can you fight with your weak auto-attack...[/quote] Its also super good in midgame, usually the first major fights already happen in midgame around your level 6-9. You usually have sufficient damage anyway, the damage differential isn't that massive.[/quote]Fair enough but my original question was "is E max sub optimal now", or is it still an option? Don't really want to switch to Q max unless I absolutely have to. [spoiler=@Chawoora][quote=Chawoora][b]Start with [[Ancient Coin]] and build into [[Talisman of Ascension]]?[/b] The negatives that I see with this is that Talisman is not really a tanky item (decent health regen...and the active is great). The problems I see with [[Relic Shield]] are 1) coordinating last hitting with the adc is tough 2) Thresh's slow attack animation without the execute make last hitting tough and 3) using my stacked Flay passive to last hit means I am not using it to bop the enemy on the head.[/quote]The thing is, Ancient Coin is incredibly weak, and so is Nomad's Medallion. Talisman of Ascension itself is not a bad item, not even by stats really, but you'll have the two really useless items with 0 stats during lane, when you could have health etc instead. In regards to the drawbacks of Targon's Brace: 1. Most ADCs are used to Targon's brace by now, I'd think. If they don't allow you any last hits, just "remind" them you have Targon's, and they'll stop. 2. I play with AD marks so I deal an adequate amount of damage, especially if I have the flay passive, which, I think is okay to use on last hits, because it comes back up really soon anyway. 3. ^, valid point though. [quote=Chawoora]And on a related subject...[b]Got any tips on using the [[Face of the Mountain]] active?[/b] Of the 3 support items, this is the one where I often get to the end of the game and realize that I never used the active. Do you cast it on yourself? Do you cast it on your ADC for the shield? Do you cast it on your engager for the shield and damage? Is it best cast on an AD or AP champ? Clearly throwing it on somebody is better than just sitting there.[/quote]It's a shield like any other, you use it like you'd use Janna's shield. If you have to use it on your self to save yourself, don't hesitate. If your AD is in a trade and losing HP faster than the enemy ADC, use it. If your top laner has been tanking the tower to get a kill in a fight and now he's about to die to a tower shot, use it.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=MissMaw][quote=Vynertje][quote=MissMaw][quote=utopus]Q has a stupid low CD when it's maxed and you have some CDR. You can seriously get off like, probably 4-5 hooks in a long, drawn out team fight. Maxed Q also does a lot more damage than maxed E :P[/quote]When do you really need 5 hooks in a teamfight? :P Besides, teamfights happen later, and if that's why you max Q, you might as well max it second, no? I feel like maxing Q in lane will indeed lead to you having more hooks - more fights - but then how can you fight with your weak auto-attack...[/quote] Its also super good in midgame, usually the first major fights already happen in midgame around your level 6-9. You usually have sufficient damage anyway, the damage differential isn't that massive.[/quote]Fair enough but my original question was "is E max sub optimal now", or is it still an option? Don't really want to switch to Q max unless I absolutely have to. [/quote] Well I think E max is a bit poor right now, but if you really don't want to max Q first you can put 3 points into E and then max Q afterwards. Skill sequence would look like this: E-Q-W-E-E-R followed by standard R>Q>W>E[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]E max isn't terrible but 3 points, then maxing Q usually turns out better. Straight-up Q max really only works if you have a boring lane or you can land a lot of hooks. Or if you lane swap of course. All of those things happen in pro play, so they pretty much always Q max. [size=1]I can only play Thresh support...[/size][/quote]

[quote=Jovy]Thank you for your input friend Psiguard!:3[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=PsiGuard]E max isn't terrible but 3 points, then maxing Q usually turns out better. Straight-up Q max really only works if you have a boring lane or you can land a lot of hooks. Or if you lane swap of course. All of those things happen in pro play, so they pretty much always Q max. [size=1]I can only play Thresh support...[/size][/quote] Flat out Q max is also better if you plan on roaming a lot (which you should, but that again only happens in pro play or really high elo solo queue)[/quote]

[quote=utopus]Not quite related to support, but something that has been on my mind recently: If you get counterpicked to hell in mid(e.g. misery lane like [[ziggs]] vs [[leblanc]]), do you actually get a LOT of lane safety by having your bot lane do a lane swap?[/quote]