Wayne3100 wrote:
In my opinion, active users are the ones who don't generally need a rec since their guide will be viewed often anyway.
Which is great, except newer and less familiar users see Recs and they assume the guide is better.
When the reality might simply be that the person has a lot of Vet friends. Many of those Vets are in reality no better than any other average player, and don't have sound game mechanics or knowledge and do not deserve to have the power to say "This is good enough to be in a separate category from those guides" because quite frankly they aren't even as good as half the guide writers out there. Why should they have that power? It's nonsense.
Wayne3100 wrote:
Not being active doesn't just make it less likely to get noticed by vets, but by all members in general. I think recs should be used for exactly those authors, the ones who write good guides that are not as widely recognized by the community.
If vets were to agree with that and focus on that, it could work imo. The system has potential, it's just misused atm.
I wrote my Offtanks guide before ever typing a single sentence in the forums.
And it was quite well received by the community that read it and tried it. Yet, not by most of the Vets.
The problem is the inherent popularity contest that is created by Vet Recs being a permanent landmark which separates one sect of guides from the other.
I'd be terribly interested to see if there was a way to make Vet Recs reasonable while categorizing the guides differently.
I don't assume you can, when many Vets aren't even terribly amazing players and some have an average understanding of how the game is actually played.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
DuffTime wrote:
Which is great, except newer and less familiar users see Recs and they assume the guide is better.
Which, strictly speaking, is their fault and their problem, but I see your point. I don't think the system is flawless either.
DuffTime wrote:
I wrote my Offtanks guide before ever typing a single sentence in the forums.
And it was quite well received by the community that read it and tried it. Yet, not by most of the Vets.
Nowadays, the vets and some other active members are generally speaking the only ones who take the time to really review a guide anyway. I wasn't there at the time and I don't feel like going through pages of comments, tbh, so I'll just ask instead: were they unreasonable? Did they ridicule others for thinking your guide was good? Or did they simply disagree with things you said and did they explain why?
DuffTime wrote:
When the reality might simply be that the person has a lot of Vet friends. Many of those Vets are in reality no better than any other average player, and don't have sound game mechanics or knowledge and do not deserve to have the power to say "This is good enough to be in a separate category from those guides" because quite frankly they aren't even as good as half the guide writers out there. Why should they have that power? It's nonsense.
The problem is the inherent popularity contest that is created by Vet Recs being a permanent landmark which separates one sect of guides from the other.
I'd be terribly interested to see if there was a way to make Vet Recs reasonable while categorizing the guides differently.
I don't assume you can, when many Vets aren't even terribly amazing players and some have an average understanding of how the game is actually played.
I think forcing multiple vets to agree with a rec won't be that bad, honestly. Not all vets are high elo players and it isn't being an high elo player which makes you a vet, but I think it's still mostly good guides that are being rec'd and the idea of having multiple vets to agree with reccing a guide would stop someone gettting a rec purely for being a nice person imo.
I know you think it's nonsense and you disagree with the system as a whole, but I would say people who believe that all vet recommended guides are 20 times as good as the others are ******ed and it's their problem if they think that way.. like, develop a brain, will ya? :P
Whatever, I'm interested in the new system Matt wants to introduce, we'll see.
Not reading any of this except first 2 pages:
Not true about the "competing with a green name"
popularity of guides has to do with:
1. Your followers (love you jhoi, but you must admit, you have a pack of like 20 people that follow you everywhere)
2. Guide Quality
3. Your own promotion
Clear example = my and pot head's guides up right now...they both keep getting random DVs with no comments T_T and have not many votes...
while look at Duff's guide and that fizz guide.
There is really no competition with vets.
As for the rec system, there is nothing really set in stone yet.
A new system has just been proposed in the Vet forums, that, imo, is worse than the current one.
No system will be perfect, but imo, either complete removal of recs with no replacement or keeping things how they are now are the best solutions.
It is more complicated than it seems to come up with something better without it hurting something else more.
Not true about the "competing with a green name"
popularity of guides has to do with:
1. Your followers (love you jhoi, but you must admit, you have a pack of like 20 people that follow you everywhere)
2. Guide Quality
3. Your own promotion
Clear example = my and pot head's guides up right now...they both keep getting random DVs with no comments T_T and have not many votes...
while look at Duff's guide and that fizz guide.
There is really no competition with vets.
As for the rec system, there is nothing really set in stone yet.
A new system has just been proposed in the Vet forums, that, imo, is worse than the current one.
No system will be perfect, but imo, either complete removal of recs with no replacement or keeping things how they are now are the best solutions.
It is more complicated than it seems to come up with something better without it hurting something else more.
Thanks to TRUeLM, Plastictree, Scrax, Xiaowiriamu, foggy12, JahGFX, jhoijhoi, msrobinson, JEFFY40HANDS, Nyoike, MissMaw, and me :) for the sigs!
caucheka wrote:
im not gonna say much, but matt proposed his idea to us. it might need a few tweaks but overall its looking good.
<3 Matt, but I think it needs more than just a few tweaks.
It seems that it will just make MOBAFire even worse.
But seriously, the current system isn't even that bad, no clue why there are so many QQs.
Most proposed new systems are just worse.
Thanks to TRUeLM, Plastictree, Scrax, Xiaowiriamu, foggy12, JahGFX, jhoijhoi, msrobinson, JEFFY40HANDS, Nyoike, MissMaw, and me :) for the sigs!
Wayne3100 wrote:
I know you think it's nonsense and you disagree with the system as a whole, but I would say people who believe that all vet recommended guides are 20 times as good as the others are ******ed and it's their problem if they think that way.. like, develop a brain, will ya? :P
You're coming from the regular MobaFire user's perspective.
Example of why this logic is not sound.
I am a new League player. I have never heard of MobaFire.
I ask my friend how to play Cho.
My friend links me to the Cho guide section.
the first thing I see is Potatis' guide with 3 recs and 93%
Of COURSE, that new player is going to use that.
When the best Cho build we have right now is not our first, not our second, no, not even our THIRD highest rated guide. It's our 4th highest rated guide, by Khazem.
Yet, people log on and use the #1 rated Cho guide which has been rec'd a billion times because obviously it's got these special superman votes and has a great percentage.
And that's never going to change as long as it has superman votes and the other guide doesn't.
We need to eliminate the superman votes, which are being tossed around by generally AVERAGE players.
Being active and busy in the forums and helping MOBAFIRE does not mean you are good enough to say, "This is above that."
Lots of people who log onto MobaFire have no idea what a Vet is, they just see the superman vote and they don't know what a Rec is but it must mean the guide is special for some reason.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
How about making it this way.
The vets, as a group, pick one guide for every champion, which they consider best.
Eventually every champion will have 1 guide that is considered best. The interesting part is obviously that all the other guide makers now have a standard, so they sort of know what standards they should live up to. Every time a vet thinks: "Hey, this guide is not currently ranked as best by us but I think it is more awesome then the current one!" Then all the vets go read the guide, vote if they agree or not.
Note that the other guide makers for that certain champion will (hopefully :o) improve their guide. If they beat the current best one, the current best one's author will think: "Damn, now I have to improve my guide to be the best again!" And that will go on for a while, until you get close to a "perfect" guide (I know perfect is an opinion, but you get the point I hope).
I suggest using the same reviewing template as Wayne3100 and GrandMasterD use. It is simple, yet effective.
The biggest advantage would be that any new MOBAfire user would come here and notice that one guide is best. They will try reading it (hopefully) and they will use the build, and come back with results after a while. If they are happy, it means that the vets did a good job with voting that guide best. If they are not happy, they will go to another guide and look at that build, try it out, and the circle goes on. This way, the vets have the most important vote but they can be "advised" by the community.
A con might be, that there are 2 guides really close to each other, and the opinions between the vets differ. Since there can only be one best according to this idea... But I guess it can be solved by just rec'ing them both. Rules are there to be broken, right? :D
Another issue will become that there should be one vet, appointed by the vets, who rec's all the guides that should be rec'd (sort of a Team Captain idea). Since there can only be one rec given per champion, there is no need for everyone to be able to rec.
Now, after all that, I must be honest and say that I haven't read every post in this thread, but I most definitely think that the vets are there for a reason. Perhaps the reason is changing, and some people should be removed while others can join in. One way or another, the idea of vets is good, and it should stay.
Just my opinion ^^
P.S. Funny thing is, while writing all this, I had this deja-vu moment (don't know if that is good English; it means that you have experienced it before)... apparently I have dreamed this. I sometimes have dreams, that come true later on. Weird :D
The vets, as a group, pick one guide for every champion, which they consider best.
Eventually every champion will have 1 guide that is considered best. The interesting part is obviously that all the other guide makers now have a standard, so they sort of know what standards they should live up to. Every time a vet thinks: "Hey, this guide is not currently ranked as best by us but I think it is more awesome then the current one!" Then all the vets go read the guide, vote if they agree or not.
Note that the other guide makers for that certain champion will (hopefully :o) improve their guide. If they beat the current best one, the current best one's author will think: "Damn, now I have to improve my guide to be the best again!" And that will go on for a while, until you get close to a "perfect" guide (I know perfect is an opinion, but you get the point I hope).
I suggest using the same reviewing template as Wayne3100 and GrandMasterD use. It is simple, yet effective.
The biggest advantage would be that any new MOBAfire user would come here and notice that one guide is best. They will try reading it (hopefully) and they will use the build, and come back with results after a while. If they are happy, it means that the vets did a good job with voting that guide best. If they are not happy, they will go to another guide and look at that build, try it out, and the circle goes on. This way, the vets have the most important vote but they can be "advised" by the community.
A con might be, that there are 2 guides really close to each other, and the opinions between the vets differ. Since there can only be one best according to this idea... But I guess it can be solved by just rec'ing them both. Rules are there to be broken, right? :D
Another issue will become that there should be one vet, appointed by the vets, who rec's all the guides that should be rec'd (sort of a Team Captain idea). Since there can only be one rec given per champion, there is no need for everyone to be able to rec.
Now, after all that, I must be honest and say that I haven't read every post in this thread, but I most definitely think that the vets are there for a reason. Perhaps the reason is changing, and some people should be removed while others can join in. One way or another, the idea of vets is good, and it should stay.
Just my opinion ^^
P.S. Funny thing is, while writing all this, I had this deja-vu moment (don't know if that is good English; it means that you have experienced it before)... apparently I have dreamed this. I sometimes have dreams, that come true later on. Weird :D
DuffTime wrote:
ok ok plz carry me omg
i was only waiting for you to ask
Temzilla wrote:
Too hot to be icecream.
Luther3000 wrote:
He looks like a hair gel advert on legs
Toshabi wrote:
Icecreamy, with hair as slick and smooth as the ocean waves of Cocobana
You need to log in before commenting.
Not really.
If all of the vets hate your guts, as unlikely as that may be, you're not gonna get voted into a rec. Idc what they say, not gonna happen. A few vets might do their best to be unbiased and vote for people they don't like and such. But generally speaking, nope.
Also, if you're not active on the forums, it makes it less likely to get noticed by Vets.
The entire "Vet Rec system" caters towards active users who either have the most friends, or kiss the most ***.
That's just the way it plays out in the end.
In my opinion, active users are the ones who don't generally need a rec since their guide will be viewed often anyway.
Not being active doesn't just make it less likely to get noticed by vets, but by all members in general. I think recs should be used for exactly those authors, the ones who write good guides that are not as widely recognized by the community.
If vets were to agree with that and focus on that, it could work imo. The system has potential, it's just misused atm.
Putting vet guides in their own section would do away with the apparent necessity to have other vets rec another vets guide.
It allows there to be access to high quality guides without having non vets fight against a green name. While still promoting strong build/guides throughout the site. If anything the idea promotes positive growth within the community because IF I "JohnSmithNoone" wanted to write an Ashe guide I could see that I wouldn't have to compete with Jhoi's well written and well liked guide.
The "regular" people could feel free to write a guide that might become popular rather than struggle to fight to the top just to be down voted because someone liked a vet's guide better.
What does the quality of jhoi's Ashe guide have to do with her being a vet? o.O
If I had written the exact same thing and would have that 91% rating right now, it would still be a struggle for others to beat me because it's a good guide. The same goes for authors trying to compete with PsiGuard's Alistar guide, Bryun's Akali guide or any other top rated guide that was written by someone who's not a vet.
It has nothing to do with the top rated guide being written by someone who's a vet. Absolutely nothing.
Placing Veteran guides in a separate section creates this sort of 'gap' between them and others. It's like saying the Veterans are 'better' and 'deserve' their own section. But, without trying to be rude right now, they're not and they don't. They're just members who have been very active on this site and they have been rewarded for that with their veteran status and the priviliges that go along with it. Placing their guides in a separate section makes no sense whatsoever.
The whole idea I attempted to state was meant to tie in the fact that vet votes/recs for each other was unnecessary and hurt the overall growth of the site. And vet votes/recs for the "regular" people needed to be encouraged, but monitored in some way.
An apparent statement overlooked by people too busy to fully read, interpret, and understand it in completion what I was saying.
That's another matter. Apart from recs that are justified (because some vets write very good guides, remember), that certainly doesn't help. However, making it impossible for vets to rec each others' guides is also not the solution since some guides simply deserve it.
Also, leave the sarcasm/hatred, please. This thread is supposed to be about naming alternatives and discussing them, so you can actually help and a system will be made to suit all (or well, most) of you. Focus on that.