Now the idea that vets are some of the best guide writers is inherently bias. Im not saying it isnt true. But im confident that there are or have been better guides written by non vets. But because you get a green name and a title (something i admitidly would love) your guide somehow has more weight to it. Which then automatically gives you a leg up on everyone else.
The idea of the system is lovely. But we are human beings therefore we all suffer from a spectrum of emotions that make us biased towards some people. Its not perfect nor can it be because we are human. Long story short there are recs out there that shouldnt be abd recs that should be awarded which havent.
Am i going to dig them up to prove my point? No because (if we are honest with ourselves) we know there are recs that were done for a friend. And non recs because someone rubbed someone else the wrong way.
I like the vet system and recs at its core ideal. But the practice or execution is where my issues lie.
The idea of the system is lovely. But we are human beings therefore we all suffer from a spectrum of emotions that make us biased towards some people. Its not perfect nor can it be because we are human. Long story short there are recs out there that shouldnt be abd recs that should be awarded which havent.
Am i going to dig them up to prove my point? No because (if we are honest with ourselves) we know there are recs that were done for a friend. And non recs because someone rubbed someone else the wrong way.
I like the vet system and recs at its core ideal. But the practice or execution is where my issues lie.
JEFFY40HANDS wrote:
Now the idea that vets are some of the best guide writers is inherently bias. Im not saying it isnt true. But im confident that there are or have been better guides written by non vets. But because you get a green name and a title (something i admitidly would love) your guide somehow has more weight to it. Which then automatically gives you a leg up on everyone else.
The same is true for any prominent member of the community. The reputation of the author has an impact on the credibility of the work, whether you like it or not. Just because vets get a green name doesn't mean they're the only ones that get votes based on their reputation. Would you rather trust a prominent member that you know is credible, or a new member with 2 posts who just published their build?
Also, jhoi said that vets are some of the best guide-writers (which is true), not the highest rated. The quality of the guide is independent of the score, especially since there are so many sheep-votes and troll-votes on the site which don't reflect the guide's quality at all. She also didn't claim that vets are better than all other authors, just that the ones who write guides generally write them well. If the author was a low elo scrub with a bad attitude, no talent and little contribution to the site, they wouldn't be made a veteran.
Thanks to The_Nameless_Bard for the sig!
Psi: Good points. You're probably right about the favourites thing.
I'm all for this motion.
Jeffy: I didn't mean for it to sound as if the vets are the only good writers around - because then there would be far more vets because a lot of people write good guides. I meant in general, a vet will have one solid guide backing them up. Off the top of my head, Wrath's Kat guide, Apoth's Tryn guide, Restrict's Udyr guide, Adon's Mundo guide (at the time, not sure now), Mowen's Kog guide (before she was promoted), Jebus' Amumu guide (before he was promoted), Scrax's Jana guide... I'm sure there are more, but that's just at the top of my head.
As for guides that are rec'd that don't deserve it - of course there are. Because we all have a different idea of what deserves a rec. You may think a viable build deserves a rec, and don't care about the guide content at all, I may think that the core build can be wonky but if the guide content is subpurb I'd rec.
So from this thread we can concur that:
1) Vet recs as they are, give too much popularity
2) Vet recs can be biased due to favouritsm
As a community, it'd be nice to hear some alternatives to vet recs. What did you have in mind for replacing this system?
Quoted:
I think the voting system would work best. Just have one Veteran Recommended stamp per guide, and have the vets vote whether to rec it or not. You could have as many vets vote either way as you want, but have a minimum number of votes before reccing.
I'm all for this motion.
Jeffy: I didn't mean for it to sound as if the vets are the only good writers around - because then there would be far more vets because a lot of people write good guides. I meant in general, a vet will have one solid guide backing them up. Off the top of my head, Wrath's Kat guide, Apoth's Tryn guide, Restrict's Udyr guide, Adon's Mundo guide (at the time, not sure now), Mowen's Kog guide (before she was promoted), Jebus' Amumu guide (before he was promoted), Scrax's Jana guide... I'm sure there are more, but that's just at the top of my head.
As for guides that are rec'd that don't deserve it - of course there are. Because we all have a different idea of what deserves a rec. You may think a viable build deserves a rec, and don't care about the guide content at all, I may think that the core build can be wonky but if the guide content is subpurb I'd rec.
So from this thread we can concur that:
1) Vet recs as they are, give too much popularity
2) Vet recs can be biased due to favouritsm
As a community, it'd be nice to hear some alternatives to vet recs. What did you have in mind for replacing this system?
No matter what the actual point of it is, recs feel very much like a popularity contest.
I feel some people's guides probably deserve recs that don't have them (I'm not included, my one good guide is up there because of pure luck as far as I can tell). The fact remains someone could have a good guide and never get a single rec because they are largely unliked by the people willing to give them.
In the end, if people can't be completely impartial about giving recs...they're not worth having.
I feel some people's guides probably deserve recs that don't have them (I'm not included, my one good guide is up there because of pure luck as far as I can tell). The fact remains someone could have a good guide and never get a single rec because they are largely unliked by the people willing to give them.
In the end, if people can't be completely impartial about giving recs...they're not worth having.
Those are some good points, Nameless. Sometimes rec's can be seen as a popularity contest. However, if I could show you the guides I had rec'd, you'd see that half of them were people who were new to the site, such as da_Neo and Siveo at the time :) I always rec'd on guide quality, I can't say the same for other vets, because each vet has their own criteria for a rec.
Personally, I think the first step would be limiting the amount of times a guide can be rec'd. I think one rec is enough per guide.
Personally, I think the first step would be limiting the amount of times a guide can be rec'd. I think one rec is enough per guide.
The_Nameless_Bard wrote:
No matter what the actual point of it is, recs feel very much like a popularity contest.
The score system is far worse. Vet recs are meant to boost the truly good guides to help them get some recognition. They're the closest thing we have to an actual measure of guide quality and viability. Without them, we're stuck with the average voter, which makes the popularity contest 10x worse.
Obviously recs are biased, as they will always be, but I think a few changes could minimize this. The voting option seems like the best idea to me right now.
The_Nameless_Bard wrote:
In the end, if people can't be completely impartial about giving recs...they're not worth having.
No one is completely impartial. Not one person on Earth. It's impossible for us to perfectly separate fact from opinion, because our minds really aren't capable of doing so. I think most if not all vets do their best to give recs fairly. I don't think any vet is deliberately irresponsible with their privilege, but they may make decisions that don't agree with some other users.
No vote is impartial either, and votes are generally far more biased than a calculated rec from a vet (or vets). We can't exactly get rid of the voting system, or we won't have any way of separating the good guides from the bad.
Thanks to Lugignaf for the sig!
@psi: my statement made no inference to score or rating did it? merely the idea that there a good guides on moba without a green name attatched.
@jhoi: is that a way of saying that all recs from vets are well earned? Unbiased and legitimate? If that were the case then there would be no need or idea to redo the rec system right? If you meant something differnt then elaborate.
Id say just give vets their own section like the pros have. Vet guides can be featured and be seperate from non vets. After the pro guides section went up people still continued at looking at non pros. This means vets dont need to rec other vet guides and leave the vets to rec non vet guides. I think itd be a viable option.
Typing this on my phone btw lol
@jhoi: is that a way of saying that all recs from vets are well earned? Unbiased and legitimate? If that were the case then there would be no need or idea to redo the rec system right? If you meant something differnt then elaborate.
Id say just give vets their own section like the pros have. Vet guides can be featured and be seperate from non vets. After the pro guides section went up people still continued at looking at non pros. This means vets dont need to rec other vet guides and leave the vets to rec non vet guides. I think itd be a viable option.
Typing this on my phone btw lol
The average voter is actually closer to impartial. He/She has probably never met the writer or even talked to them on the forums. They vote based on their own opinion of the guide itself.
EDIT: Not to say all Vets don't do this when they rec, but I would be kidding myself if I said none of them didn't.
EDIT: Not to say all Vets don't do this when they rec, but I would be kidding myself if I said none of them didn't.
Jeffy: No, not at all. Madmack's Ashe guide still has 2 rec's - I definitely don't think it deserves any. There are vet recs out there that don't seem fair or realistic, but most of those have been archived or have expired. If you're talking about current guides that don't deserve vet recs... I can't think of any off the top of my head that outrage me for being rec'd.
For example, on the front page:
Xenasis' Jungle guide
Bee's Riven guide
Calibern's Xin guide
Singer's Irelia guide
Psi's Alistar guide
Do any of these guides not deserve their rec's? I don't play Irelia, so I wouldn't know about that one, but the other four I would rec (or had rec'd before I removed all mine).
With regards to giving vets their own section, I don't mind the idea. However, a lot of vet guides are holding the number one spot for their champions, for example my Ashe and Vayne guides. What would happen to these guides?
Is it really fair for me to lose the #1 spot for my Ashe guide when it was #1 before I was a vet?
For example, on the front page:
Xenasis' Jungle guide
Bee's Riven guide
Calibern's Xin guide
Singer's Irelia guide
Psi's Alistar guide
Do any of these guides not deserve their rec's? I don't play Irelia, so I wouldn't know about that one, but the other four I would rec (or had rec'd before I removed all mine).
With regards to giving vets their own section, I don't mind the idea. However, a lot of vet guides are holding the number one spot for their champions, for example my Ashe and Vayne guides. What would happen to these guides?
Is it really fair for me to lose the #1 spot for my Ashe guide when it was #1 before I was a vet?
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^Very true, Duff. I once suggested that all rec's should have to be a panel vote, where 4 or more vets would have to agree on a guide for it to be rec'd. This would remove that bias you were talking about, as each rec would be aye'd or nay'd with reasons as to why or why not.
Unless you're friends with 4 vets, which isn't unheard of. It would certainly reduce the personal favoritism by a lot though. This would also remove (maybe?) the need for more than one vet rec on the same guide.
Another suggestion by Jun was that a guide should be rec'd once the community had "favourited" the guide past a certain amount, as people are more likely to favourite a guide they really like.
Nah. Favoriting guides isn't an accurate reflection of their quality. Most people favorite guides because they want to come back to them (whether they're good or not), and some don't use the feature at all. I think it would be much less accurate than simply judging based on score, which is already a popularity contest as much as it is a quality evaluation.
Yet another suggestion is that people of considerably high elo can rec guides based off build alone.
Blech. I hate elitism. We don't have a whole lot of high elo mobafire members to work with, and several of them don't have the time or patience to read through long guides. Not to mention that even some of the pros use weird builds.
I think the voting system would work best. Just have one Veteran Recommended stamp per guide, and have the vets vote whether to rec it or not. You could have as many vets vote either way as you want, but have a minimum number of votes before reccing.