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Bard Theorycrafting

Creator: NicknameMy March 12, 2015 3:49pm
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The_Nameless_Bard
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full utility Bard is better. He's not really intended to be a damage support.
Ellodere
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My thoughts


I think there's some good though to this little champion that looks like Teemo's lost uncle. Because there's still some potential inside of him that can be unlocked using runes and masteries.
Masteries

Runes


Before we continue, I just forgot to point out that you can also go for 4/2/24 with masteries, taking sorcery in offense, recovery on defense then the same setup of utility that I showed but you take full points into meditation, 1 point into strength of spirit and 1 point into expanded mind, it focuses more on mana, and this can help us greatly in our mana needs. But this is just a hypothesis that I made, because I was thinking that tear of godess could be essential on him simply because you can get the archangel's staff into seraph's embrace because it gives you such a healthy shield and can save you.

Items


That's it for me on this braum topic, I might do some research on him later and make a much clearer build and setup for him, because I need to optimize it for his case and I need to do testing.
The_Nameless_Bard
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Pretty sure scaling MR marks are extremely suboptimal. I also see no reason not to just run something like armor quints, AD marks, flat health seals, and 6 flat MR/3 scaling MR glyphs (or all flat MR if you prefer that).

You should just go 4-5-21 in masteries, if you're not already (I'm far too lazy to try to check that). 4-2-24 is just terrible. 0-16-14 is doable if you want a more defensive page.

Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients aren't worth it on Bard. Tear of the Goddess is also not worth it on Bard. Building around Strength of Spirit is a stupid choice, it's a terrible mastery, don't bother taking it. Turbo Chemtank seems pretty suboptimal to me when you can just get Talisman of Ascension and spend that gold elsewhere, but it's not as terrible as some of the other things you've listed. There's no reason you'd ever get Face of the Mountain on him.

I'd run:
> > talisman of ascension

for defensive items:


alternate options:


final build should probably look something like:
talisman of ascension
Ellodere
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Pretty sure scaling MR marks are extremely suboptimal. I also see no reason not to just run something like armor quints, AD marks, flat health seals, and 6 flat MR/3 scaling MR glyphs (or all flat MR if you prefer that).

You should just go 4-5-21 in masteries, if you're not already (I'm far too lazy to try to check that). 4-2-24 is just terrible. 0-16-14 is doable if you want a more defensive page.


It seems terrible to go that, but I'm just making theories and speculations from the things I can see him scale at. I will of course need to test it out and see what is good. But I can see what you are trying to say. I just think because of that he will roam most of the time if not almost all the time, he needs some kind of way to abuse that fact, it's an absolute that he will roam, riot has made him into that roaming champion, which is why I do believe that 4/5/21 can be changed into 4/2/24 because you can then use that fact even further getting seraph's embrace, it's not for a ****ty reason that I said this, with righteous glory and Locket of the iron solari plus the strength of spirit and seraph's, you can get as much as 66 hp regen. Because of the base regen increase. But I see where you are trying to go with this, that's good too.

Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients aren't worth it on Bard. Tear of the Goddess is also not worth it on Bard. Building around Strength of Spirit is a stupid choice, it's a terrible mastery, don't bother taking it. Righteous Glory seems pretty suboptimal to me when you can just get Talisman of Ascension and spend that gold elsewhere, but it's not as terrible as some of the other things you've listed. There's no reason you'd ever get Face of the Mountain on him.


Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients are for specific situations on Bard, but you are right if you are trying to argue for that there's better items. To me I would only be getting Tear of the Godess simply for the Strength of spirit and for the fact that you get seraph's embrace which increases his tankiness, but I see where you are thinking when you state it like that, if bard doesn't use the tear to it's fullest efficiency then it's not worth, which I suppose is true. It's not a stupid choice to go for Strength of Spirit after building the items I mentioned, just a bit out of the box. Righteous Glory is useful for its utility, so is talisman, you can argue for buying it instead of RG but specifically for the build I suggested I chose RG because of its stats. Face of the Mountain is a choice which I would only take late game if and only if there's a situation that arises where either the adc or apc dont survive very long, which of course can be solved with mikael's and locket, but you might need more than that.

I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.
The_Nameless_Bard
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Ellodere wrote:
Spoiler: Click to view
The reasoning for the runes being the way they are is that Bard does not scale particularly well with AP, nor does he do enough magic damage to warrant mpen or even hybrid pen. Flat AD increases his auto-attack harass, which is about as good as it's gonna get. Armor marks are usable on him (not entirely optimal though), but scaling MR marks are worthless on any champion. Movement Speed quints aren't worth it because the rune set-up you end up with using them will not be particularly good in lane. Bard doesn't roam at level one, so you still need to keep that in mind given that his laning is still fairly weak. Scaling runes, in general (with the exception of scaling magic resist), are not particularly worth it on supports. Armor quints, health seals, and MR glyphs (of either flavor or some of each) combined together give you a decent defensive set-up that will work against most supports you encounter in solo queue.

With 3k max mana Strength of Spirit will give you 10 hp/5 (that's nearly negligible late game), trust me when I say it's not worth taking and definitely not worth building specifically for.

The 4-2-24 set-up is just overkill, there is no reason to have that many points in utility, because Expanded Mind and Inspiration (I have no idea if you take the points in the latter, but it's worth mentioning) are pretty poor, in general, and pointing points in them is a waste.

Quoted:
Spoiler: Click to view
There are no situations where you should be getting Ardent Censer, Will of the Ancients, or Seraph's Embrace on Bard. His AP scaling is terrible, so he doesn't benefit from their stats, and the first two are both generally extremely mediocre except on a few specific champions in a few specific situations. Bard is not one of those champions. Turbo Chemtank is basically redundant unless you just don't sell the Frostfang for Talisman of Ascension. There's no real reason to build it instead of Talisman of Ascension on Bard, as Bard simply does not use its active as well. Face of the Mountain does nothing for Bard and it doesn't particularly fit his playstyle either.

Quoted:
I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.
Theories or not, the logic is still entirely flawed. There aren't a bunch of ways to build Bard, because Bard just doesn't have the damage or scaling in his kit for it. We're not talking about a champion like Janna (who scales well with AP on supportive skills and can build either AP or utility because of it) or Karma (who generally builds a lot of AP, but can also buy utility items like Mikael's Blessing because her high base damage allows for that without sacrificing too much). He really works best with a full utility support build and that's not going to change until they mess with his kit some more.
GrandmasterD
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Ellodere wrote:

It seems terrible to go that, but I'm just making theories and speculations from the things I can see him scale at. I will of course need to test it out and see what is good. But I can see what you are trying to say. I just think because of that he will roam most of the time if not almost all the time, he needs some kind of way to abuse that fact, it's an absolute that he will roam, riot has made him into that roaming champion, which is why I do believe that 4/5/21 can be changed into 4/2/24 because you can then use that fact even further getting seraph's embrace, it's not for a ****ty reason that I said this, with righteous glory and Locket of the iron solari plus the strength of spirit and seraph's, you can get as much as 66 hp regen. Because of the base regen increase. But I see where you are trying to go with this, that's good too.



Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients are for specific situations on Bard, but you are right if you are trying to argue for that there's better items. To me I would only be getting Tear of the Godess simply for the Strength of spirit and for the fact that you get seraph's embrace which increases his tankiness, but I see where you are thinking when you state it like that, if bard doesn't use the tear to it's fullest efficiency then it's not worth, which I suppose is true. It's not a stupid choice to go for Strength of Spirit after building the items I mentioned, just a bit out of the box. Righteous Glory is useful for its utility, so is talisman, you can argue for buying it instead of RG but specifically for the build I suggested I chose RG because of its stats. Face of the Mountain is a choice which I would only take late game if and only if there's a situation that arises where either the adc or apc dont survive very long, which of course can be solved with mikael's and locket, but you might need more than that.

I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.

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Ellodere
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Isn't that a bit insulting? Lol. Anyway, I suppose you are right Nameless. You have beaten my arguments to a pulp, but you got style.
I shall get back to the drawing board for now.
Jimmydoggga 2.0
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Ellodere wrote:
Isn't that a bit insulting?


I don't think it was intended as an insult. :|

Basically MOBAFire.
Ellodere
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I don't think it was intended as an insult. :|


I don't know. I'm pretty aware that sometimes my behaviour goes a bit too far and I say things that are not meant to be said according to everyone around me most of the time. It's something I've been encountering ever since my childhood but I like being myself nonetheless. I just thought maybe I went a bit too far and he took it in the wrong way.
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