Bard Theorycrafting

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]full utility [[Bard]] is better. He's not really intended to be a damage support.[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][spoiler=My thoughts]Bard doesn't have a formidable movement speed which can lead to complications during early game roaming. This is something I want to point out first because when a champion is announced and put into the game, we have to know what the absolute facts of that champion is. In this case, movement speed is something that he needs which is why I think he needs movement speed quints, but he also needs some way to sustain his gold needs, because most of the time we won't be in lane, so from that we can understand he needs a gold item. Gold seals seem very bad because they only give 0.25 gold each, when you have 9 gold seals you will gain 2.25 gold in total per 10, which only gets you from the normal passive gold gain of 19 per ten to 21.25 per ten, not much. But to be honest, I do not consider it worth to sacrifice quints, you need the 4.5% movement speed increase both for early game and late game. It increases your normal movement speed from that pretty meh 330 to 345 roughly. Which puts him at a better spot for roaming. The chimes are essential for him because of his nomad playstyle that scales off of roaming, but they appear randomly. But even though it is random, it shouldn't be too random considering the programming that had to be put into it. Another thing that I found extremely good on him was his E, which can be used on for walls and other things to make your roaming capabilities more efficient, it's also helpful for invades. His extra movement speed increase on it gives even more utility to him. His shrines just like rek'sai's tunnels will be destroyed if an enemy champions steps on them, but they are potentially really good for trades when fully bloomed. That's why putting them in safe spots is essential to helping other lanes but mostly your botlane partner who I believe wont really benefit so much from heals except...just regaining hp. That's pretty much it for the adc who has a Bard on his lane, you wont be seeing him, and his damage and kit wont really help you inside of lane that much, so essentially he needs to roam, but at the same time his adc will be in a 2 on 1 situation, unless it's a fed draven(who I think would be the best candidate for such a champion like bard) or a caitlyn, or something that has long range and can survive throughout the laning phase even without bard(very few options). So the absolutes for bard is to roam, help lanes and try his best to play like a real nomad and his kit can be good in many situations, but not all. He is in general a very situational pick in my opinion simply because of his weaknesses and his most visible absolute that he needs to roam. But I think he will have a chance in this game, even in some other matchups and team compositions, he just needs to be figured out to the furthest possible range.[/spoiler] I think there's some good though to this little champion that looks like Teemo's lost uncle. Because there's still some potential inside of him that can be unlocked using runes and masteries. [spoiler=Masteries] For utility we take: For the other points, we can either go the CDR path and get: 3 points in fleet of foot 4 points into sorcery 1 point in meditation 2 points into recovery 3 points in summoner's insight 2 points into block 1 point in alchemist 1 point into veteran scars 3 points in greed Or we go the more defensive path: 1 point in culinary master 2 points into recovery 1 point in scavenger 2 points into block 1 point in wealth 1 point into unyielding 2 points in inspiration 3 points into veteran scars 3 points in intelligence 1 point into juggernaut For the final point we don't want bandit Honestly, we benefit a bit more from the 1 point into veteran because let's face it, only sivir and scar in the CDR path because of that we are ranged, so lucian have the same AA range and they unyielding isn't so good because it only gives a decrease of 1 still got enough damage on their back to compared to veteran scars which can essentially serve as a deal a lot more than us. For supports you far better block of damage than unyielding, 12 hp is greater. will almost never get any auto's off on them because they can poke you back and or sustain your damage, which is just 45-97 damage. Our Q is not that great either and doesn't really give that gold we need to make it efficient, our mana is limited and I think the last point can go into something that benefits bard better, which I think in this case is his mana regen. Therefore we put the point into meditation for the increase mana regen and then finally we take the 21st point into Wanderer, the essential mastery we need as a nomad.[/spoiler] [spoiler=Runes]For our runes we take: 3 movement speed quints 9 armor or 9 scaling health seals or 9 scaling armor 9 mr or 9 scaling mr 9 armor marks or 9 scaling mr The 3 movement speed quints are essential to bard because of his gameplay, the 9 armor is good in case you need to stay in lane simply because of that the enemy team composition in botlane is too strong for your adc, the scaling health is good if you are up against a really ap heavy comp and the 9 scaling armor are good in case you want to be a more passive bard and be more of a nomad. The 9 scaling mr is there because he doesn't have any mr scaling, also because he is a roamer he can get away with it. Otherwise take the normal 9 mr. The 9 armor marks are good in case you need a bit more armor, in combination with the scaling seals you can take these to make sure you have a good defense early on, it makes up for most of the armor loss. The 9 scaling mr marks are good in case you need more defense against magical damage, generally against ap heavy compositions.[/spoiler] Before we continue, I just forgot to point out that you can also go for 4/2/24 with masteries, taking sorcery in offense, recovery on defense then the same setup of utility that I showed but you take full points into meditation, 1 point into strength of spirit and 1 point into expanded mind, it focuses more on mana, and this can help us greatly in our mana needs. But this is just a hypothesis that I made, because I was thinking that tear of godess could be essential on him simply because you can get the archangel's staff into seraph's embrace because it gives you such a healthy shield and can save you. [spoiler=Items]For items you take mobility items and items that help your team out in some way, Righteous glory is essential with the build I just said up here ^^. Because 1) It gives health which is awesome and absolutely needed.2) It gives 300 mana which gives us 1+ health regen with our mastery strength of spirit which gives health regen for every 300 mana, how convenient. 3) It gives 100% base health regen. Which synergizes with our setup 4) It gives you such a good active and a good passive aswell. We also need sightstone, a must have item, because won't just be walking around, but we will be warding and covering areas that need to be warded and essentially, you are a support so you need it anyway. We also need abyssal or locket depending on what your team needs the most, the ability power of abyssal is meh but still does do some good with our damage. Michael's Crucibel is really good, gives us CDR, mana regen and an active that will be useful against CC. Boots of mobility is required to stay optimal as a roamer, take alacrity or captain as the enchantment depending on if you need more utility. Plus the tear of godess. Like I mentioned earlier, that we need to be efficient with this setup. For other items there's will of the ancients, twin shadows, ardent censer which can work together with the heal you got when you are starting teamfights, the adc can place himself in advantageous position where he can make use of the heals, and potentially gain extra attack speed. Talisman of ascension, Frost queen's claim and Face of the mountain (only really for helping the adc or apc) are all good items and I think you can benefit from both coin and the spellthief well, but I do believe spellthief comes more in handy because it gives you a steady 2 gold instead of the gold coin that has the condition of standing near minions. So spellthief should be your starting item, but it should transition into ascension because of the utility it provides. For trinkets you go with green ward into red trinket for clearing wards, then upgrade it so you can get the prolonged effect and clear even more wards. This is really good with his movement speed that he will get through all these items.[/spoiler] That's it for me on this braum topic, I might do some research on him later and make a much clearer build and setup for him, because I need to optimize it for his case and I need to do testing.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Pretty sure scaling MR marks are extremely suboptimal. I also see no reason not to just run [url=http://i.imgur.com/1LA7NbW.png]something like[/url] armor quints, AD marks, flat health seals, and 6 flat MR/3 scaling MR glyphs (or all flat MR if you prefer that). You should just go [url=http://i.imgur.com/szBZ6bm.png]4-5-21[/url] in masteries, if you're not already (I'm far too lazy to try to check that). 4-2-24 is just terrible. [url=http://i.imgur.com/SuB7Yxm.png]0-16-14[/url] is doable if you want a more defensive page. [[Ardent Censer]] and [[Will of the Ancients]] aren't worth it on [[Bard]]. [[Tear of the Goddess]] is also not worth it on [[Bard]]. Building around [[Strength of Spirit]] is a stupid choice, it's a terrible mastery, don't bother taking it. [[Righteous Glory]] seems pretty suboptimal to me when you can just get [[Talisman of Ascension]] and spend that gold elsewhere, but it's not as terrible as some of the other things you've listed. There's no reason you'd ever get [[Face of the Mountain]] on him. I'd run: [icon=spellthief's edge size=30][icon=health potion size=30][icon=mana potion size=30][icon=warding totem size=30] > [icon=frostfang size=30][icon=sightstone size=30][icon=sweeping lens size=30][icon=chalice of harmony size=30] > [icon=mikael's crucible size=30][icon=talisman of ascension size=30][icon=oracle's lens size=30][icon=ruby sightstone size=30] for defensive items: [icon=locket of the iron solari size=30][icon=frozen heart size=30][icon=banshee's veil size=30][icon=randuin's omen size=30] alternate options: [icon=righteous glory size=30][icon=thornmail size=30] final build should probably look something like: [icon=talisman of ascension size=40][icon=boots of mobility - distortion size=40][icon=ruby sightstone size=40][icon=mikael's crucible size=40][icon=locket of the iron solari size=40][icon=randuin's omen size=40][icon=oracle's lens size=40][/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Pretty sure scaling MR marks are extremely suboptimal. I also see no reason not to just run [url=http://i.imgur.com/1LA7NbW.png]something like[/url] armor quints, AD marks, flat health seals, and 6 flat MR/3 scaling MR glyphs (or all flat MR if you prefer that). You should just go [url=http://i.imgur.com/szBZ6bm.png]4-5-21[/url] in masteries, if you're not already (I'm far too lazy to try to check that). 4-2-24 is just terrible. [url=http://i.imgur.com/SuB7Yxm.png]0-16-14[/url] is doable if you want a more defensive page. [/quote] It seems terrible to go that, but I'm just making theories and speculations from the things I can see him scale at. I will of course need to test it out and see what is good. But I can see what you are trying to say. I just think because of that he will roam most of the time if not almost all the time, he needs some kind of way to abuse that fact, it's an absolute that he will roam, riot has made him into that roaming champion, which is why I do believe that 4/5/21 can be changed into 4/2/24 because you can then use that fact even further getting seraph's embrace, it's not for a shitty reason that I said this, with righteous glory and Locket of the iron solari plus the strength of spirit and seraph's, you can get as much as 66 hp regen. Because of the base regen increase. But I see where you are trying to go with this, that's good too. [quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients aren't worth it on Bard. Tear of the Goddess is also not worth it on Bard. Building around Strength of Spirit is a stupid choice, it's a terrible mastery, don't bother taking it. Righteous Glory seems pretty suboptimal to me when you can just get Talisman of Ascension and spend that gold elsewhere, but it's not as terrible as some of the other things you've listed. There's no reason you'd ever get Face of the Mountain on him.[/quote] Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients are for specific situations on Bard, but you are right if you are trying to argue for that there's better items. To me I would only be getting Tear of the Godess simply for the Strength of spirit and for the fact that you get seraph's embrace which increases his tankiness, but I see where you are thinking when you state it like that, if bard doesn't use the tear to it's fullest efficiency then it's not worth, which I suppose is true. It's not a stupid choice to go for Strength of Spirit after building the items I mentioned, just a bit out of the box. Righteous Glory is useful for its utility, so is talisman, you can argue for buying it instead of RG but specifically for the build I suggested I chose RG because of its stats. Face of the Mountain is a choice which I would only take late game if and only if there's a situation that arises where either the adc or apc dont survive very long, which of course can be solved with mikael's and locket, but you might need more than that. I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=Ellodere][spoiler]It seems terrible to go that, but I'm just making theories and speculations from the things I can see him scale at. I will of course need to test it out and see what is good. But I can see what you are trying to say. I just think because of that he will roam most of the time if not almost all the time, he needs some kind of way to abuse that fact, it's an absolute that he will roam, riot has made him into that roaming champion, which is why I do believe that 4/5/21 can be changed into 4/2/24 because you can then use that fact even further getting seraph's embrace, it's not for a shitty reason that I said this, with righteous glory and Locket of the iron solari plus the strength of spirit and seraph's, you can get as much as 66 hp regen. Because of the base regen increase. But I see where you are trying to go with this, that's good too.[/spoiler][/quote]The reasoning for the runes being the way they are is that [[Bard]] does not scale particularly well with AP, nor does he do enough magic damage to warrant mpen or even hybrid pen. Flat AD increases his auto-attack harass, which is about as good as it's gonna get. Armor marks are usable on him (not entirely optimal though), but scaling MR marks are worthless on any champion. Movement Speed quints aren't worth it because the rune set-up you end up with using them will not be particularly good in lane. [[Bard]] doesn't roam at level one, so you still need to keep that in mind given that his laning is still fairly weak. Scaling runes, in general (with the exception of scaling magic resist), are not particularly worth it on supports. Armor quints, health seals, and MR glyphs (of either flavor or some of each) combined together give you a decent defensive set-up that will work against most supports you encounter in solo queue. With 3k max mana [[Strength of Spirit]] will give you 10 hp/5 (that's nearly negligible late game), trust me when I say it's not worth taking and definitely not worth building specifically for. The 4-2-24 set-up is just overkill, there is no reason to have that many points in utility, because [[expanded mind]] and [[inspiration]] (I have no idea if you take the points in the latter, but it's worth mentioning) are pretty poor, in general, and pointing points in them is a waste. [quote][spoiler]Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients are for specific situations on Bard, but you are right if you are trying to argue for that there's better items. To me I would only be getting Tear of the Godess simply for the Strength of spirit and for the fact that you get seraph's embrace which increases his tankiness, but I see where you are thinking when you state it like that, if bard doesn't use the tear to it's fullest efficiency then it's not worth, which I suppose is true. It's not a stupid choice to go for Strength of Spirit after building the items I mentioned, just a bit out of the box. Righteous Glory is useful for its utility, so is talisman, you can argue for buying it instead of RG but specifically for the build I suggested I chose RG because of its stats. Face of the Mountain is a choice which I would only take late game if and only if there's a situation that arises where either the adc or apc dont survive very long, which of course can be solved with mikael's and locket, but you might need more than that.[/spoiler][/quote]There are no situations where you should be getting [[Ardent Censer]], [[Will of the Ancients]], or [[Seraph's Embrace]] on [[bard]]. His AP scaling is terrible, so he doesn't benefit from their stats, and the first two are both generally extremely mediocre except on a few specific champions in a few specific situations. [[Bard]] is not one of those champions. [[Righteous Glory]] is basically redundant unless you just don't sell the [[Frostfang]] for [[Talisman of Ascension]]. There's no real reason to build it instead of [[Talisman of Ascension]] on [[Bard]], as [[Bard]] simply does not use its active as well. [[Face of the Mountain]] does nothing for [[bard]] and it doesn't particularly fit his playstyle either. [quote]I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.[/quote]Theories or not, the logic is still entirely flawed. There aren't a bunch of ways to build [[Bard]], because [[Bard]] just doesn't have the damage or scaling in his kit for it. We're not talking about a champion like [[Janna]] (who scales well with AP on supportive skills and can build either AP or utility because of it) or [[Karma]] (who generally builds a lot of AP, but can also buy utility items like [[Mikael's Crucible]] because her high base damage allows for that without sacrificing too much). He really works best with a full utility support build and that's not going to change until they mess with his kit some more.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Ellodere][quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Pretty sure scaling MR marks are extremely suboptimal. I also see no reason not to just run [url=http://i.imgur.com/1LA7NbW.png]something like[/url] armor quints, AD marks, flat health seals, and 6 flat MR/3 scaling MR glyphs (or all flat MR if you prefer that). You should just go [url=http://i.imgur.com/szBZ6bm.png]4-5-21[/url] in masteries, if you're not already (I'm far too lazy to try to check that). 4-2-24 is just terrible. [url=http://i.imgur.com/SuB7Yxm.png]0-16-14[/url] is doable if you want a more defensive page. [/quote] It seems terrible to go that, but I'm just making theories and speculations from the things I can see him scale at. I will of course need to test it out and see what is good. But I can see what you are trying to say. I just think because of that he will roam most of the time if not almost all the time, he needs some kind of way to abuse that fact, it's an absolute that he will roam, riot has made him into that roaming champion, which is why I do believe that 4/5/21 can be changed into 4/2/24 because you can then use that fact even further getting seraph's embrace, it's not for a shitty reason that I said this, with righteous glory and Locket of the iron solari plus the strength of spirit and seraph's, you can get as much as 66 hp regen. Because of the base regen increase. But I see where you are trying to go with this, that's good too. [quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients aren't worth it on Bard. Tear of the Goddess is also not worth it on Bard. Building around Strength of Spirit is a stupid choice, it's a terrible mastery, don't bother taking it. Righteous Glory seems pretty suboptimal to me when you can just get Talisman of Ascension and spend that gold elsewhere, but it's not as terrible as some of the other things you've listed. There's no reason you'd ever get Face of the Mountain on him.[/quote] Ardent Censer and Will of the Ancients are for specific situations on Bard, but you are right if you are trying to argue for that there's better items. To me I would only be getting Tear of the Godess simply for the Strength of spirit and for the fact that you get seraph's embrace which increases his tankiness, but I see where you are thinking when you state it like that, if bard doesn't use the tear to it's fullest efficiency then it's not worth, which I suppose is true. It's not a stupid choice to go for Strength of Spirit after building the items I mentioned, just a bit out of the box. Righteous Glory is useful for its utility, so is talisman, you can argue for buying it instead of RG but specifically for the build I suggested I chose RG because of its stats. Face of the Mountain is a choice which I would only take late game if and only if there's a situation that arises where either the adc or apc dont survive very long, which of course can be solved with mikael's and locket, but you might need more than that. I just wanna point out that this is just theories and ideas that I have been having inside of me when I first started to look into bard, there's many ways to build him, but I need to first try it out on him (in about 3 weeks or so I will do so), but right now Im just trying to delve myself into bard and try and find as many ways as possible and see what is best. I'm sorry if it all seemed so stupid to you when I stated all those things, but I didn't do it randomly, I had thought inside of my mind when I did it.[/quote] [img=http://i.imgur.com/XOC5CEh.gif][/quote]

[quote=oxide110]Gif is 5 words, half the gif screen is 50 words...[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=GrandmasterD] [img=http://i.imgur.com/XOC5CEh.gif][/quote] Isn't that a bit insulting? Lol. Anyway, I suppose you are right Nameless. You have beaten my arguments to a pulp, but you got style. I shall get back to the drawing board for now.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0][quote=Ellodere] Isn't that a bit insulting? [/quote] I don't think it was intended as an insult. :|[/quote]

[quote=Ellodere][quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0][quote=Ellodere] Isn't that a bit insulting? [/quote] I don't think it was intended as an insult. :|[/quote] I don't know. I'm pretty aware that sometimes my behaviour goes a bit too far and I say things that are not meant to be said according to everyone around me most of the time. It's something I've been encountering ever since my childhood but I like being myself nonetheless. I just thought maybe I went a bit too far and he took it in the wrong way.[/quote]