DFG is being removed.

[quote=FalseoGod]I'll just say it again: I have no idea how it's justifiable to do this when you have 2 AD assassins who pop people and whose counterplay is basically (pink wards for talon +) zhonya and/or Guardian Angel (+QSS for Zed, and even then lol his damage). "OH MY STARS AND GARTERS BUT ZED DEALS SO LITTLE DAMAGE LALZ." No. "OH LOL BUT NOONE PLAYS ZED." No. And, like Amelyne said, you also have Rengar and Khazix who also deal absurd damage with little counterplay if ahead even if they build tanky. But somehow we reached the conclusion that DFG is toxic for the game because it allows you to capitalize on a good engage and to make sure you deal enough damage. I just find it hilarious that, as a bursty ap carry I'm expected to either blow the enemy apart on one rotation or wait for my cooldowns (provided that some, like Syndra, aren't significant), whereas AD assassins (or Fizz, who didn't really use) often can just put another auto-attack in. Oh, and those guys have much better in-out tools, whereas if Syndra blows her E she's sacrificing her only reliable self-peel ability. Finaly, I like how something is toxic to the game without many people even getting it. Toxicity in League of Legends, it seems, is about items that aren't even necessary or used. Clearly, unpopular build paths are smothering the game.[/quote]

[quote=Darealone]Can we say its okay for almost no counter play for assassins because there role is to 100 to 0 you before you can do anything?[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Thats the problem, the role of an assassin is toxic in itself. There should be champion abilities and items that counter assassins, not that the assassins can't burst you. But, of course, it should be hard for assassins to burst you. But also, without assassins, carries are OP as they have no direct counter. So well, yeah.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote] However, ever since Season 3, champions simply aren't all that tanky any more so there's hardly a reason that justifies this item's existence. [/quote] That's not really true, there are just more ways to deal with tanky champions. Before in season 1 and season 2 there weren't many champions that could deal with it, we didn't have items like Liandry's r Blade of the Ruined King either. Also DFG was initially changed from a way to deal with health stacking champions to a burst-mage item because burst-mages were terrible, think of season 2: anivia, cassiopeia, karthus, orianna, et. The outliers were Katarina and Diana, but these champions were played because they were utterly broken, not because their role was strong in the meta. [quote] The item is hardly part of any champion's core build; only bad the bad and the behind LeBlanc players will rush this item and no one else. [/quote] That's because the item got nerfed, not because it's an item for bad players. That's like saying Athene's should be removed from the game because bad players take Athene's over Morellonomicon now. [quote] DFG is very healthy for the game [/quote] [quote]DFG is an utterly toxic item with about zero counterplay and statistics which are absolutely bonkers. [/quote] pick one [quote] item requires no skill whatsoever [/quote] that's fucking idiotic. How many items that give raw stats require skill? The answer is none, items that have an active component, especially one as crucial as DFG (i.e. if you're buying DFG and not using the active) inherently require more skill [quote]Lastly, yes it nerfs Veigar, but who the fuck cares? The champion is bad and has no value in the current meta game, and as far as I know, the champion has never ever seen competitive play [/quote] He saw competitive play in season 1 and season 2. But that's a terrible reason. There are a lot of champions that fall in and out of the meta, but Riot's goal is to make every champions as viable and competitive as they can. If that's your reasoning, then we shouldn't have had things like the [[Karma]] rework and the [[Sion]] rework because neither of them really offered anything to competitive play[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod][quote=Darealone]Can we say its okay for almost no counter play for assassins because there role is to 100 to 0 you before you can do anything?[/quote] And it's not ok for a mage to do this because they've been labeled "mage" and not "mage/assassin"? If you don't want a mage to play like an assassin, you make it so that their kit doesn't allow this. I'm not criticizing the assassin role, I'm criticizing AD assassins, although recognizing that [[fizz]] also does it pretty well. Akali is an AP assassin who doesn't blow you up [i]that[/i] fast (unless significant level/item gap) and she still offers more counterplay than the others I've mentioned. Same for Katarina. Not to mention Twisted Fate used to be labeled as an assassin by Riot (not sure if still is)[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]@moon Pretty sure he actually said "the removal/rework of DFG is very healthy for the game", just saying. I don't have much of an opinion on this topic, but taking things blatantly out of context doesn't make for a solid argument.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]well i'm glad i quit this game before this announcement came out since this is an incredibly shitty change yes, riot should just keep forcing the meta towards ad assassins, that'll totally work /sarcasm i can't believe i'm saying this but i honestly prefer season 1/2's bullshit to current bullshit[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=FalseoGod]I'll just say it again: I have no idea how it's justifiable to do this when you have 2 AD assassins who pop people and whose counterplay is basically (pink wards for talon +) zhonya and/or Guardian Angel (+QSS for Zed, and even then lol his damage).[/quote] [[Zhonya's Hourglass]] is a core item for every single mage, additionally, just because [[Zed]] is strong, doesn't mean that DFG should exist in the way that it does. Also, DFG has less counterplay. [quote=FalseoGod]And, like Amelyne said, you also have Rengar and Khazix who also deal absurd damage with little counterplay if ahead even if they build tanky. But somehow we reached the conclusion that DFG is toxic for the game because it allows you to capitalize on a good engage and to make sure you deal enough damage.[/quote] Champion kits are something entirely different than items. [[Rengar]], [[Kha'Zix]], [[Zed]], and [[Talon]] bring next to no utility to a team whereas [[Lissandra]], [[LeBlanc]], and the likes bring plenty. Why should a mage pack the same burst as a character who is tailored to assassinating and also pack CC and other forms of utility? [quote=FalseoGod]I just find it hilarious that, as a bursty ap carry I'm expected to either blow the enemy apart on one rotation or wait for my cooldowns (provided that some, like Syndra, aren't significant), whereas AD assassins (or Fizz, who didn't really use) often can just put another auto-attack in. Oh, and those guys have much better in-out tools, whereas if Syndra blows her E she's sacrificing her only reliable self-peel ability.[/quote] I find it hilarious that you think that, just because two entirely different champions are both commonly found in the mid-lane, they fulfil the exact same role, and therefore should have access to the very same tools. [[Zed]] and [[Fizz]] are both assassins, but they do their tricks in a completely different way. Additionally, [[Fizz]] has access to items that directly increase his burst like [[Lich Bane]] and a percentual modifier known as [[Rabadon's Deathcap]], [[Zed]] doesn't. Additionally, he has access to [[Zhonya's Hourglass]], arguably the strongest item available to AP-based champions. [quote=FalseoGod]Finaly, I like how something is toxic to the game without many people even getting it. Toxicity in League of Legends, it seems, is about items that aren't even necessary or used. Clearly, unpopular build paths are smothering the game.[/quote] So, just because something is not prevalent, it isn't toxic? I can make all sorts of comparisons here that would make that statement sound even more ridiculous than it already is. DFG, at its very core, is toxic design that brings nothing good to this game. Even if it is not as prevalent in competitive play, that doesn't mean that it should keep on existing just for your amusement. In the end, your arguments are “Well, X is unfair too, so DFG should remain in this game.” and “It has no impact on competitive play and therefore it is not toxic.” Both arguments are very poor at best and really do not state what good it actually brings. I'm pretty sure that you are just salty over your weird-as-fuck [[Syndra]] build with [[Twin Shadows]], [[Deathfire Grasp]], [[Rylai's Crystal Scepter]], and no [[Rabadon's Deathcap]] is no longer, well, whatever it is. Instead, bring an actual argument to the table that carefully explains what is actually good about DFG, in terms of design, and what good it brings to the game that is League of Legends.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD]Going to assume that these are my comments you're quoting, but I cannot be sure [quote=Mooninites][quote] However, ever since Season 3, champions simply aren't all that tanky any more so there's hardly a reason that justifies this item's existence. [/quote] That's not really true, there are just more ways to deal with tanky champions. Before in season 1 and season 2 there weren't many champions that could deal with it, we didn't have items like Liandry's r Blade of the Ruined King either. Also DFG was initially changed from a way to deal with health stacking champions to a burst-mage item because burst-mages were terrible, think of season 2: anivia, cassiopeia, karthus, orianna, et. The outliers were Katarina and Diana, but these champions were played because they were utterly broken, not because their role was strong in the meta.[/quote] True, it's an aspect of it, but DFG itself was an item to counter massive health stacking on its own, and that was its niche. [quote=Mooninites][quote] The item is hardly part of any champion's core build; only bad the bad and the behind LeBlanc players will rush this item and no one else. [/quote] That's because the item got nerfed, not because it's an item for bad players. That's like saying Athene's should be removed from the game because bad players take Athene's over Morellonomicon now.[/quote] Partially, but also because other items have simply proven to be more useful and versatile as a whole. Additionally, the item was nerfed because of its toxicity.[/quote] [quote=Mooninites][quote] DFG is very healthy for the game [/quote] [quote]DFG is an utterly toxic item with about zero counterplay and statistics which are absolutely bonkers. [/quote] pick one[/quote] See Nameless' comment on that one. [quote=Mooninites][quote] item requires no skill whatsoever [/quote] that's fucking idiotic. How many items that give raw stats require skill? The answer is none, items that have an active component, especially one as crucial as DFG (i.e. if you're buying DFG and not using the active) inherently require more skill[/quote] It's not about the stats, but about the active. Press the button whilst having your mouse over an enemy champion before you use your actual spells, that hardly requires a manual. There's no timing involved whatsoever, you just mash the button. [quote=Mooninites][quote]Lastly, yes it nerfs Veigar, but who the fuck cares? The champion is bad and has no value in the current meta game, and as far as I know, the champion has never ever seen competitive play [/quote] He saw competitive play in season 1 and season 2. But that's a terrible reason. There are a lot of champions that fall in and out of the meta, but Riot's goal is to make every champions as viable and competitive as they can. If that's your reasoning, then we shouldn't have had things like the [[Karma]] rework and the [[Sion]] rework because neither of them really offered anything to competitive play[/quote] I cannot recall [[Veigar]] seeing consistent play in major tournaments on a competitive level, but show me if I'm wrong. Also, it's not a reason for removing DFG, but it's saying that the argument of “X champion loses its build” is just plain terrible. [[Veigar]] is one of the very few who has the item in its core build, which is why I brought him up. Also, if you've been paying any attention to the latest trend and the competitive scene, then you'll notice that Riot's goal is not to make as many champions viable. The current competitive champion pool is extremely limited, but shifts from time to time. This keeps the game fresh and forces people to actually buy champions with money because otherwise they simply cannot keep up, assuming they want to play the game in a competitive fashion. [[Karma]] and [[Sion]] reworks are bones thrown at the community which keeps them happy. Neither of the reworks was tailored to the meta at the time and thus they didn't see competitive play. [[Karma]] has seen quite a bit of competitive play, yes, but that was a long time after the rework; the meta started to eventually favour her. I will repeat myself: I've yet to hear a compelling argument that describes what good DFG actually brings to the current game state, because I really don't see it. The item is one of the few elements that has practically no counter play whatsoever, and it turns everything into a 100-0 champion. [quote=Nighthawk]well i'm glad i quit this game before this announcement came out since this is an incredibly shitty change yes, riot should just keep forcing the meta towards ad assassins, that'll totally work /sarcasm i can't believe i'm saying this but i honestly prefer season 1/2's bullshit to current bullshit[/quote] The only AD assassin who has a place in the current meta game would be [[Zed]], and no one else. Also, as I've said before, [[Zed]]'s existence and strength are not arguments for DFG's existence and strengths.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod][quote] Also, DFG has less counterplay.[/quote] How so? Exactly the same thing is required of both champs after you used the DFG active/Zed ult: sticking power and followup. You may argue that DFG is bonkers because it doesn't limit itself to the champion using it. Zhonya's hourglass prevents mage damage just as much as Zed's death mark trigger (which lategame he often doesn't even need) and of the DFG users. Is Zed being melee the issue? He has 3 shadows he can move out with, whereas [[lissandra]], as an example, is stuck there, hoping her W + Zhonya + Team followup are enough. [quote]Champion kits are something entirely different than items. Rengar, Kha'Zix, Zed, and Talon bring next to no utility to a team whereas Lissandra, LeBlanc, and the likes bring plenty. Why should a mage pack the same burst as a character who is tailored to assassinating and also pack CC and other forms of utility?[/quote] Leblanc packs next to 0 utility, lol. Also, the mages are much more susceptible to direct engages, and they aren't nearly as mobile as Zed/Talon/Rengar/Kha nor are they as effective at splitpushing. Not to mention those four, if splitpushing, demand at least two people to stop them or pressure the enemy team to do a really good engage mid (coz 5v4), otherwise they'll take objectives for free. So they're also skipping utility for map pressure. And, apart from Syndra/Veigar/Leblanc, the burst is hardly comparable, not to mention that, once again, you're sending a champion with less bulk stats and, in most cases, less mobility, into a bad position. [quote]I find it hilarious that you think that, just because two entirely different champions are both commonly found in the mid-lane, they fulfil the exact same role, and therefore should have access to the very same tools. Zed and Fizz are both assassins, but they do their tricks in a completely different way. Additionally, Fizz has access to items that directly increase his burst like Lich Bane and a percentual modifier known as Rabadon's Deathcap, Zed doesn't. Additionally, he has access to Zhonya's Hourglass, arguably the strongest item available to AP-based champions.[/quote] Spare me the word distortion, I spoke of giving burst mages another tool to help make sure they can get their job done which is, well, bursting. And Zed doesn't have those tools because he's been balanced around what already exists. This brings us to the "Riot will rebalance these champs" point which, as I've said before, I can't trust until I've seen it, since I doubt they'll give champions like Lissandra more damage. This, in turn, means that people used to a certain playstyle with that champ - a more aggressive one - are obligated to choose something else, even when their build wasn't necessarily the most popular. [quote]In the end, your arguments are “Well, X is unfair too, so DFG should remain in this game.” and “It has no impact on competitive play and therefore it is not toxic.” Both arguments are very poor at best and really do not state what good it actually brings. I'm pretty sure that you are just salty over your weird-as-fuck Syndra build with Twin Shadows, Deathfire Grasp, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and no Rabadon's Deathcap is no longer, well, whatever it is. Instead, bring an actual argument to the table that carefully explains what is actually good about DFG, in terms of design, and what good it brings to the game that is League of Legends.[/quote] Oh, now we're resorting to direct offence, that's nice. I will not apologize for my "weird as fuck Syndra build" it had a context and noone gave me better alternatives when I asked. Also, I have no need to justify DFG's presence in the game since there has been no justification as why it [b] should not [/b] be, other than "for balancing reasons", which would be ok if all those champions held the item as core. It's like saying we might as well boost every champion's AP because most of them build Rabadon anyway so fuck it. Actually, why build items at all? But personally, the item allows me to capitalize on the good picking up of players. If, as playing Syndra, I manage to poke efficiently and hit E-Q, I don't know why they should be allowed to survive with 5 HP when they were out of position/caught in the first place. I do not buy it on pretty much any other champion except Ahri anyway, and I think that if I'm risking my butt to kill someone, it's actually not a bad thing to have a tool that helps me do so since, if I were playing Zed, I could get the fuck out anyway. On a sidenote, yours and other people's ever prepotent "my elo is better than yours" attitude remains unimpressive after 3 years of Mobafire.[/quote]