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The problem is that BAD builds are getting good scores.. Good score=ppl will use it, but we don't want people to use bad builds..
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Egypsian_Lover
<Member>
<Member>
But the reality is - some of those reports of trolls really are accurate reports. There are people out there who create accounts for the sole purpose of harassing other users.
Case in point: a user recently downvoted my guide without leaving a remotely intelligible reply. Before reporting, I checked his profile and saw that every post that's ever been made from his account was a downvote with no explanations for any of them, so I was pretty sure I was reporting a troll. Matt removed his comment, but he came back and attacked Matt and then went and downvoted all the guides of everyone who reported him as retribution, leaving the same 6 word message "please stop with this troll build" on every one.
The point is... while I'd imagine there are users who take a lot of offense at being downvoted, there's also the other side which is that there ARE users who really are trolls.
Oh, and so we're on the same page...
The point is: trolls are out there and it's the other users I feel for whose builds he's spammed across the board... so public voting has its merits.
Case in point: a user recently downvoted my guide without leaving a remotely intelligible reply. Before reporting, I checked his profile and saw that every post that's ever been made from his account was a downvote with no explanations for any of them, so I was pretty sure I was reporting a troll. Matt removed his comment, but he came back and attacked Matt and then went and downvoted all the guides of everyone who reported him as retribution, leaving the same 6 word message "please stop with this troll build" on every one.
The point is... while I'd imagine there are users who take a lot of offense at being downvoted, there's also the other side which is that there ARE users who really are trolls.
Oh, and so we're on the same page...
The point is: trolls are out there and it's the other users I feel for whose builds he's spammed across the board... so public voting has its merits.
See, what did that fight start over? An honest public dv from a reader that wanted to vote, not comment. Author forces him to, so he leaves a nasty comment. Author takes offense to it as a result, and a big messy fight ensues leaving a path of destruction behind it. This was all over the site, retaliation and rage after honest votes causing a big mess. We even had authors threatening readers over their votes leaving them no choice but to change it to a + out of fear! This is why comments and voting are separate systems, people can't handle public voting, there is way too much ego involved. Not to mention it is way too inviting for people to revenge-troll you BECAUSE they know you can see them doing it! That is exactly what a troll wants, that is their satisfaction.
As you said Egypsian_Lover, everyone is in the same boat and your rank will still sort itself out in time.
If it will make everyone feel better we can show all the scores as a happy 100% but keep their rank as is ;)
As you said Egypsian_Lover, everyone is in the same boat and your rank will still sort itself out in time.
If it will make everyone feel better we can show all the scores as a happy 100% but keep their rank as is ;)
This needs to be stickied somewhere on the site. :)
Like at the troll-votes (we won't remove them) thread.
Like at the troll-votes (we won't remove them) thread.
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Egypsian_Lover
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<Member>
Matt wrote:
As you said Egypsian_Lover, everyone is in the same boat and your rank will still sort itself out in time.
Word. People will make troll accounts. Whether or not you let it piss you off is entirely your choice. I've got no ego riding on the status of my build as I'm a recreational gamer and it's not as if I want to make "Egypsian_Lover" an internet celebrity.
The ideal ostensibly is a system wherein general preference for a build is accurately reflected in its score and trolling/raging is minimized. A public voting system is such a system.
Public voting helps cut back on trolling and reveals trolls like the one I used as an example above so that their accounts can be removed. It also allows users interested in why a build was downvoted to look and see if there's any kind of explanation. Additionally, if one build is truly better than other builds, even if a discerning player isn't comfortable downvoting the other builds, he'll certainly be comfortable upvoting the truly better build so it will still end up with a better score.
The system is fine... if people stop to think about the nature of its functionality. You guys did a good job designing it. If one build is worse than another, you upvote the better build. Making voting private would lessen the accuracy of scores. With the current system, there's transparency, better builds rise to the top, and the effect of trolling is minimized. As a result of the accuracy of the system, my build went to third highest in 1 day and anyone who wants to know why it has 1 downvote can click the guy's profile and realize, "Oh, I see, this is a troll account created for the sole purpose of downvoting."
I'm not at all worried people will steer clear of my build because they see 1 downvote. People are just not that stupid.
You actually said:
Matt wrote:
If it will make everyone feel better we can show all the scores as a happy 100% but keep their rank as is ;)
I know you said this facetiously but... removing downvoting altogether isn't a bad idea. I'm not advocating for it, but it's not a bad idea. Then builds rise to the top on the merits of their quantity of upvotes. You don't even need a percentage... just the number of upvotes. The downvotes open a gateway for trolling... and the public voting helps to, in part, mitigate the effects of that.
This doesn't really address Jun's initial question of having PV only apply for the first 60 votes, it's more intended to defend at least having it for those first 60.
We can't rank guides if it's a Facebook "Like" system. Is a one year old guide with 300 likes better than a 1 hour old guide with 30 likes? Who knows. Down votes are necessary in order to determine a rank. What we COULD do is just not show the down votes in any way. Show the total number of up votes and nothing else. We would still need the down votes for rank though.
Public voting doesn't mitigate trolling. As I've said, trolls will troll. They'll do it anyways, or they'll make a second account and do it from there. Not only that but they'll enjoy it even more because they can watch the author react to the public votes showing up. The inflated scores people were seeing were NOT because of reduced trolling. In fact we had MORE trolling, because it was more fun for them.
Public voting doesn't mitigate trolling. As I've said, trolls will troll. They'll do it anyways, or they'll make a second account and do it from there. Not only that but they'll enjoy it even more because they can watch the author react to the public votes showing up. The inflated scores people were seeing were NOT because of reduced trolling. In fact we had MORE trolling, because it was more fun for them.
I'd suggested this before.
There needs to be a re-evaulation system.
Example:
Day 1 - You vote on a guide
Day 90 - You receive a "message"
There needs to be a re-evaulation system.
Example:
Day 1 - You vote on a guide
Day 90 - You receive a "message"
Quoted:
System:
Hello, you voted on this guide a while ago.
MobaFire.com would like a moment of your time to ensure this guide is still up to date.
[insert link here]"
Hello, you voted on this guide a while ago.
MobaFire.com would like a moment of your time to ensure this guide is still up to date.
[insert link here]"
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Egypsian_Lover
<Member>
<Member>
Well guys I certainly appreciate your perspectives and you make good points. I have the luxury of not having to sift through all the reports you have to, Matt, and my experience is somewhat limited to one troll I've encountered whom I reported because he trolled others far worse than me... so if I seem to extrapolate based on what seems logical to me and do so in error please pardon!
In the end, don't plan on ever making everyone happy unless you can make everyone's build the #1 ranked build. If downvotes get hidden, then the complaint you'll hear is that the voting system isn't transparent enough.
In the end, people have to remember that most readers know how voting systems work and are are smarter than to only read the top 2 or 3 builds anyway. Your build might not be the top rated, but if the name suggests it's unique or it's the newest or it's updated frequently enough or even if you just play really well and someone asks what your secret is in a game and you refer them to it, people will end up reading it and that's the whole point of making a guide.
It's not about a score; it's about making that 1 or 2 people happy who try it and get it.
In the end, don't plan on ever making everyone happy unless you can make everyone's build the #1 ranked build. If downvotes get hidden, then the complaint you'll hear is that the voting system isn't transparent enough.
In the end, people have to remember that most readers know how voting systems work and are are smarter than to only read the top 2 or 3 builds anyway. Your build might not be the top rated, but if the name suggests it's unique or it's the newest or it's updated frequently enough or even if you just play really well and someone asks what your secret is in a game and you refer them to it, people will end up reading it and that's the whole point of making a guide.
It's not about a score; it's about making that 1 or 2 people happy who try it and get it.
JunSupport wrote:
I'd suggested this before.
There needs to be a re-evaulation system.
Example:
Day 1 - You vote on a guide
Day 90 - You receive a "message"
A good 50% of the people who vote on guides probably don't vote on a regular basis or even visit the site on a regular basis.
50% of those remaining won't take the time to re-vote.
50% of THOSE remaining probably won't reconsider their vote since they feel that the guide's still relevant or good.
The messaging system would only clutter up the cache, be another thing to update, and wouldn't pay off enough.
<Editor>