My Ashe Guide

[quote=Jet]fuck sake why do you make your responses the length of your guide [quote] I disagree. For instance, if you did buy Berserker's Greaves because you were laning against Sivir (for example), and then teamfights erupted where the rest of the enemy team had multiple stuns/did huge magic damage bursts - it'd be prudent to sell those boots and buy Mercury's Treads.[/quote] i bought berserkers because they are the best boots in the game for a carry, and the most cost efficent AS item in the entire game. you have banshees for burst damage - if you sell items, you're bad, that is [b]all[/b] there is to it. there's only exceptions where you mistake someone elses build and you're building to counter, but you're ashe, you don't need to worry about that. [quote]Why is 21/0/9 outdated? Also, what points would you allocate into offense and utility if you went 15/0/15? I assume not the Attack Speed?[/quote] well, 21/0/9 has been a bad choice forever really, compared to utility spec, but people realised that you can get all the offensive masteries to benefit your early game and all the utility masteries to help your lane and your SS cooldown. crit/as/armor ignore/minion/attack damage offensive ghost/pers/exp/mp5/greed/movement2/flash [quote]When I did run with HP Quints, I was pretty unkillable, but I found myself missing the damage boost from the quints of armour penetration. Then I tried quints of swiftness and they're pretty awesome. However, I can definitely see the benefit in buying HP quints for the early game advantage. With regards to the armour seals - just like how hp/lvl seals were suggested earlier, I have to concede I didn't think of either. It does seem like the mp5/lvl gives greater utility though.[/quote] HP just helps give you that early advantage with missing a dorans, and with dorans, boosts it more. early game if you lane against someone with a massive burst, like anivia, you're going to have a hard time maintaining lane [quote] Is The Black Cleaver really that inferior? [/quote] yes. last whisper affects your entire damage to armor stackers, and if the enemy isn't getting armor to counter your damage then they are bad and you can kill them easily anyway. black cleaver is nulified (to a degree) with chain vest. thats 700 to counter your 2.8k gold item, and then if they get more armor.. (and like you said, it's assuming you hit them 3 times in a row) with last whisper, the more armor they are getting, the heavier your reduction gets. that's why it will always be better than black cleaver. regarding mercs: [quote]That early magic resist[/quote] runes. berserkers > mercs for any ad carry that auto attacks [quote]Nothing's more painful than trying to run away from Nunu once he's hit you with that huge chunk of floating ice.[/quote] mercs doesn't stop that, flash does. thats why you take flash[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=Jet] fuck sake why do you make your responses the length of your guide[/quote] haha :P I genuinely lol'd. [quote=jet]i bought berserkers because they are the best boots in the game for a carry, and the most cost efficent AS item in the entire game.[/quote] You know, I can't even remember the last time I've bought [[berserker's greaves]]. I should try it and see how I do. [quote=jet]you have banshees for burst damage - if you sell items, you're bad, that is [b]all[/b] there is to it. there's only exceptions where you mistake someone elses build and you're building to counter, but you're ashe, you don't need to worry about that.[/quote] So you're saying straight out that [[ashe]] should have [[berserker's greaves]] always and not swap it out later for [[mercury's treads]]? K, will try it. I know I've bought [[ionian boots of lucidity]] and [[sorcerer's shoes]] on [[sona]] before and traded them out when the team fights began and they'd target me. When I read what I just wrote it does sound bad, but you know... [quote]HP just helps give you that early advantage with missing a dorans, and with dorans, boosts it more. early game if you lane against someone with a massive burst, like anivia, you're going to have a hard time maintaining lane[/quote] Yeah, I'm seeing the benefits already. I was up against a [[rumble]] with health quints and defense mastery set up. I was [[malphite]] and he had more health than me, even though we both had Doran's Items. HP quints ftw. Regarding [[the black cleaver]]/[[last whisper]], I see your point. Hmm. I'll have to try it again before I switch out BC for LW, just to make sure. [quote=jet][quote=jhoijhoi]Nothing's more painful than trying to run away from Nunu once he's hit you with that huge chunk of floating ice.[/quote] mercs doesn't stop that, flash does. thats why you take flash [/quote] lol Nunu's projectile will follow you to fountain. [[flash]] wouldn't stop it. But I get your drift.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn][quote]Why not 21 offense? Is the lack of damage from the other 6 points in offense noticeable?[/quote] Chauster: "21 in offensive masteries is pretty useless IMO as the damage boost is insignificant compared to lowered cooldown on Flash, extra movespeed, and extra mana regen." [quote]Why do you feel as though Black Cleaver isn't viable on Ashe?[/quote] Chauster: "Black cleaver isn't "not viable" it just isn't recommended. The reason for this is Black cleaver only offers -45 armor reduction overall while tanks have upwards of 200 armor late game. It would be redundant to buy a black cleaver and also get a last whisper as that is very inefficient in terms of armor reduction as they cancel each other out. This mentality is based on rushing an IE. After rushing an IE you either want attack speed, more damage, or armor reduction, all of which correspond to zeal/recurve bow, blood thirster, or last whisper." I'd say get Zerker's for the early game advantage and if the mobility from Zeal and the defense from Banshee's isn't keeping you alive, you're free to sell Zerker's and buy Mercs. TreeEskimo stresses how it's important to buy items for an early game advantage, even if you sell them later. Zerker's are a 920 gold investment that only end up costing 230 gold once you sell them - less than a red pot.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=searz] Mastery tree: works, but I find 15/0/15 and 0/9/21 better. Runes: works, but I think the best setup would be; ArP or AD quints, ArP marks, HP/lvl seals and MP5/lvl glyphs. Items: they're nice. One of the builds with highest DPS of all carry builds. I graphed it :)[/quote] Oooh, could I see that graph? What Mastery Points do you allocate to each side? Wouldn't giving up the main points, Havoc or Presence of the Master, be kinda bad? However. I guess I can agree with that. 5% extra damage seems kinda lame when you think about it: 5% of 100 = 5 extra damage. HP/lvl seals aren't something I've ever considered on [[ashe]] o.O But I can see the benefits of it. The only problem is that I wouldn't want to give up my mana regeneration Seals, as [[ashe]] runs out of mana pretty fast with those Seals as it is.[/quote] No masteries used in the comparison. IE+PD+Black Cleaver+Optional damage item (2 slots reserved for boots and BV) I'm on vacation in Iceland atm, I'll see if can upload the graph when I get back. [url=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=3-0-0-1-0-4-0-0-3-1-3-0-0-0&tree2=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-2-1-1-4-0-1-3-0-0-2-1-0-0-0]15/0/15[/url] or [url=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/mastery-tree-planner#&tree1=0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree2=0-3-0-3-3-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0&tree3=0-2-1-1-4-0-1-3-1-0-3-1-3-0-1]0/9/21[/url] The main thing about the masteries and runes I suggested is that the mana-reg lost in runes is gained in masteries. So mana won't be a problem. Thus allowing us to use seals for a nice boost to survivability(+175 HP at lvl18). If you went ahead and read the tooltip of Havoc carefully you'd notice that it's +5% of BASE damage. That's what makes it kinda so-so. The moment you start getting items you'll hardly notice the damage anymore. Ashe doesn't by any means need the points in offense, so why not go into utility? Also; AD quints+15 or 21 utility=more early damage than MS quints+21offense. ArP quints are better in lategame and equal to AD in midgame. [quote]Thanks guys, for the very helpful replies! I will quote a lot of it in my guide, and perhaps remove [[the black cleaver]] from my main build and leave a space for players to choose between [[last whisper]] and [[the black cleaver]].[/quote] No, make BC a core item (along with IE and PD). Then just recommend a few items for for the offensive item slot. BT, LW and Atma's Impaler are the best items for that slot.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I don't understand why Black Cleaver would be a bad item on Ashe. It seems great. It can compare to Last Whisper in DPS with ONLY ONE STACK or the passive. Why would it be a bad item? I'll show a graph and formulas for those who don't believe me.[/quote]

[quote=Jebus McAzn]It doesn't let Ashe shred tanks as quickly, and it becomes nullified with a 700 gold investment from the enemy team while also being 1000 gold more expensive than Last Whisper. LW's percentage based armor penetration remains relevant through the whole game and scales as enemy tanks get beefier while Cleaver shines early on but doesn't cut it when enemies just buy a Chain Vest.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]With 3 stacks of the passive it shreds tanks at 200+ armor at the same speed. It also deals LOADS more damage to those with less than 150 armor. If enemies stack up armor like hell then you can actually combine LW with BC with a gain in DPS compared to other items like BT or Atma. That means that BC deals more damage than BT, Atma and LW.[/quote]

[quote=Eihn]you should leave starks for another champ. you need to go straight dmg with a banshees and mobility[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]Thanks again guys, for all the comments that are making my guide far more in-depth than it was. But I've got some people telling me [[the black cleaver]] is better, and others saying that [[last whisper]] has to be a core item. Would anyone else like to add more points for and against each item?[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]By the way, here's the list of changes I've made to my guide due to all of the comments: [color=green][b]Summoners:[/b] [/color][[flash]] + [[ghost]] -remained the same [color=green][b]Mastery Tree Set:[/b][/color] 15/0/15 -changed due to the realisation that the Utility Tree is a better resource to use for mana regeneration allowing [[ashe]]'s runes to be more flexible and centred around survivability/damage. [color=green][b]Runes: [/b][/color]Quints of Desolation, Marks of Armour Penetration, Seals of Armour, Glyphs of Cooldown Reduction - changed to reflect Mastery Tree changes. Basically because I'm receiving mana from the Utility side of the tree and I'm making up for the loss of damage in the Offense tree (no Havoc - so using Quints of Desolation) - that leaves me with little survivability in terms of runes. Thus the use of Armour runes which certainly will give [[ashe]] an early game bonus. [color=green][b]Skilling Order:[/b][/color] [[enchanted crystal arrow]] > [[volley]] > [[hawkshot]] / [[frost shot]] - remained the same so far because the utility [[hawkshot]] brings is too vital to give up in regards to increasing its range [color=green][b]Items:[/b][/color] [[doran's blade]], [[mercury's treads]], [[infinity edge]], [[phantom dancer]], [[banshee's veil]], [[the bloodthirster]], [[the black cleaver]] - I am still debating whether to change this. The things that will remain in the main item build are: [[Doran's Blade]], [[Mercury's Treads]] (though I might suggest them buying [[berserker's greaves]] early and swapping them out), [[Infinity Edge]], [[Phantom Dancer]] (as no one has yet had a problem with IE or PD in this thread), and [[Banshee's Veil]]. [[The Bloodthirster]] and [[the Black Cleaver]] are still in dispute as to whether they should be swapped out for [[last whisper]] or another damage/attack speed item.[/quote]