You are bad, if you main any of the following...

[quote=Dyto]Aatrox, Akali, Azir, Camille, Darius, Diana, Draven, Evelyn, Fiora, Gnar, Hecarim, Illaoi, Irelia, Jarvan, Jax, Kassadin, Katarina, Kayn, Kha'zix, Kled, Lee sin, Master Yi, Mordekaiser, Nocturne, Olaf, Pyke, Qiyanna, Quinn, Reksai, Renekhton, Rengar, Riven, Sett, Shaco, Shen, Shyvanna, Sylas, Talon, Tryndamere, Udyr, Vi, Warwick, Wukong, Xin, Yasuo, Yorick, and ofcourse Zed. Did I trigger anybody yet? yes, if you main these champions, or these are the only champions you have positive winrates on you are infact a newbie or just outright bad. How can this be? Riot suggests these champions take HIGHER skill to play mostly dont they? In all honesty, league of legends is INCREDIBLY simple and any "mechanical challenges" between champion use is easily overcome. The only REAL difference then becomes, is it harder to play AS, or AGAINST that champion. This is the only metric that can be realistically used to gauge balance, typically it should be a pretty hard choice ... if balance is done properly. In the case of these champions though, with very little time dedicated one could EASILY overcome ingame knowledge etc by having a stronger champion. Playing these champions is not necessarily harder, infact in all honesty its a lot closer to being allowed to use MMA fight moves AND a baseball bat, in a strictly boxing only tournament.... who cares if you know how or not to throw a round house kick vs your oponnent, if hes not allowed equally as devastating a move. This is 47 champions of an entire roster of 148, but these champions are so bad for balance that they can very easily carry games ENTIRELY on their own ( yes admittedly any champion can, but these can MUCH easier ). Also, most of these champions are incredibly strong earlier in the game, leading to MUCH less challenges a long the way to becoming strong. You are not good because you can "insec", you're bad because you need to exploit that champion. Also, I want you to know that I main several champions on this list, because im bad.[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Did I trigger anybody yet? yes, if you main these champions, or these are the only champions you have positive winrates on you are infact a newbie or just outright bad.[/quote] Okay, so I have a few concerns here. If I am or anyone else that plays these champions are newbies or as you call them "outright bad", how come we have positive winrates then? How come we can play the game in order to win and get these winrates? Your entire argument here crumbles at the ending of your sentence. [quote=Dyto]How can this be? Riot suggests these champions take HIGHER skill to play mostly dont they? In all honesty, league of legends is INCREDIBLY simple and any "mechanical challenges" between champion use is easily overcome. The only REAL difference then becomes, is it harder to play AS, or AGAINST that champion.[/quote] Now one could argue that this and this is broken and this and this should be nerfed / buffed, but in all honesty, why do these things according to your argument, make us a bad player? The reason Riot suggests that these take higher skill is because it's much harder to master a champion like [[irelia]] then it is to master a champion like [[garen]]. The skill ceiling between both champions and the amount of skillshots etc. on each champ, indicates the kind of difficulty you need if you love that champ and want to master it. Hitting a [[Flawless Duet]] to get a passive proc that you can use [[bladesurge]] for to actually be able to deal damage, followed by a [[vanguard's edge]] which can make or break your entire combo because it too is a skillshot is a lot harder to pull off (because they are skillshots) in comparison to a [[decisive strike]] running towards you at mach 20 and dealing damage instantly, followed up by a [[judgment]] and a point and click [[demacian justice]] to the face. [quote=Dyto]This is the only metric that can be realistically used to gauge balance, typically it should be a pretty hard choice ... if balance is done properly. In the case of these champions though, with very little time dedicated one could EASILY overcome ingame knowledge etc by having a stronger champion.[/quote] Just because your champion is a little bit stronger, doesn't mean you can outright just 1v9 the entire game and ignore any gameplay knowledge or macro just because your champion has that tiny little nitty bit of extra AD than your opponent. [quote=Dyto]Playing these champions is not necessarily harder, infact in all honesty its a lot closer to being allowed to use MMA fight moves AND a baseball bat, in a strictly boxing only tournament.... who cares if you know how or not to throw a round house kick vs your oponnent, if hes not allowed equally as devastating a move.[/quote] 1. No they aren't necessarily harder to play, but it doesn't make them necessarily easier to play either. 2. What? 3. You're comparing a virtual game with virtual stats to a real game where the players themselves and the individual strength that they have will indicate how strong they can throw a round house kick vs their opponents? [quote=Dyto]This is 47 champions of an entire roster of 148, but these champions are so bad for balance that they can very easily carry games ENTIRELY on their own ( yes admittedly any champion can, but these can MUCH easier ).[/quote] No they still can't carry games much easier. Every champion has the same chances to carry a game, it's not about the champion you're playing, it's about you as a player and what you decide to do which will dictate your gameplay and will therefore lead to success, not the other way around. [quote=Dyto]Also, most of these champions are incredibly strong earlier in the game, leading to MUCH less challenges a long the way to becoming strong.[/quote] No they are not? Infact, [[fiora]], [[aatrox]], [[illaoi]], [[jax]], [[kassadin]], [[master yi]], [[lee sin]], [[mordekaiser]], [[nocturne]], [[pyke]], [[qiyana]], [[riven]], [[sett]], [[shen]], [[sylas]], [[talon]], [[vi]], [[wukong]], [[xin zhao]], [[yasuo]] and [[zed]] whom are all champions you listed as "completely broken pls nerf" can have one of the worst early game stages ever, much like with any champion in the game. If you know how to play vs a champion, you'll know how to make sure they cannot get their powerspikes. If you don't and ignore them, of course they are definitely going to become unkillable gods, like with any champion. Comparing these to a friendly neighborhood [[vayne]] is the same. A fed [[vayne]], [[xayah]], [[caitlyn]] etc. can carry equally as hard as all of these champions that you just mentioned. [quote=Dyto]You are not good because you can "insec", you're bad because you need to exploit that champion. Also, I want you to know that I main several champions on this list, because im bad.[/quote] 1. You're not exploiting anything with any champion. Every champion has their own features, it's how you as a player use those features to improve and become a better player. 2. If you main several of these champions, and you end this thread with saying that you are also bad, then what is the point of your entire argument and this entire thread exactly? Just to rant or what?[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Did I trigger anybody yet? yes, if you main these champions, or these are the only champions you have positive winrates on you are infact a newbie or just outright bad.[/quote] Okay, so I have a few concerns here. If I am or anyone else that plays these champions are newbies or as you call them "outright bad", how come we have positive winrates then? How come we can play the game in order to win and get these winrates? Your entire argument here crumbles at the ending of your sentence. [quote=Dyto]How can this be? Riot suggests these champions take HIGHER skill to play mostly dont they? In all honesty, league of legends is INCREDIBLY simple and any "mechanical challenges" between champion use is easily overcome. The only REAL difference then becomes, is it harder to play AS, or AGAINST that champion.[/quote] Now one could argue that this and this is broken and this and this should be nerfed / buffed, but in all honesty, why do these things according to your argument, make us a bad player? The reason Riot suggests that these take higher skill is because it's much harder to master a champion like [[irelia]] then it is to master a champion like [[garen]]. The skill ceiling between both champions and the amount of skillshots etc. on each champ, indicates the kind of difficulty you need if you love that champ and want to master it. Hitting a [[Flawless Duet]] to get a passive proc that you can use [[bladesurge]] for to actually be able to deal damage, followed by a [[vanguard's edge]] which can make or break your entire combo because it too is a skillshot is a lot harder to pull off (because they are skillshots) in comparison to a [[decisive strike]] running towards you at mach 20 and dealing damage instantly, followed up by a [[judgment]] and a point and click [[demacian justice]] to the face. [quote=Dyto]This is the only metric that can be realistically used to gauge balance, typically it should be a pretty hard choice ... if balance is done properly. In the case of these champions though, with very little time dedicated one could EASILY overcome ingame knowledge etc by having a stronger champion.[/quote] Just because your champion is a little bit stronger, doesn't mean you can outright just 1v9 the entire game and ignore any gameplay knowledge or macro just because your champion has that tiny little nitty bit of extra AD than your opponent. [quote=Dyto]Playing these champions is not necessarily harder, infact in all honesty its a lot closer to being allowed to use MMA fight moves AND a baseball bat, in a strictly boxing only tournament.... who cares if you know how or not to throw a round house kick vs your oponnent, if hes not allowed equally as devastating a move.[/quote] 1. No they aren't necessarily harder to play, but it doesn't make them necessarily easier to play either. 2. What? 3. You're comparing a virtual game with virtual stats to a real game where the players themselves and the individual strength that they have will indicate how strong they can throw a round house kick vs their opponents? [quote=Dyto]This is 47 champions of an entire roster of 148, but these champions are so bad for balance that they can very easily carry games ENTIRELY on their own ( yes admittedly any champion can, but these can MUCH easier ).[/quote] No they still can't carry games much easier. Every champion has the same chances to carry a game, it's not about the champion you're playing, it's about you as a player and what you decide to do which will dictate your gameplay and will therefore lead to success, not the other way around. [quote=Dyto]Also, most of these champions are incredibly strong earlier in the game, leading to MUCH less challenges a long the way to becoming strong.[/quote] No they are not? Infact, [[fiora]], [[aatrox]], [[illaoi]], [[jax]], [[kassadin]], [[master yi]], [[lee sin]], [[mordekaiser]], [[nocturne]], [[pyke]], [[qiyana]], [[riven]], [[sett]], [[shen]], [[sylas]], [[talon]], [[vi]], [[wukong]], [[xin zhao]], [[yasuo]] and [[zed]] whom are all champions you listed as "completely broken pls nerf" can have one of the worst early game stages ever, much like with any champion in the game. If you know how to play vs a champion, you'll know how to make sure they cannot get their powerspikes. If you don't and ignore them, of course they are definitely going to become unkillable gods, like with any champion. Comparing these to a friendly neighborhood [[vayne]] is the same. A fed [[vayne]], [[xayah]], [[caitlyn]] etc. can carry equally as hard as all of these champions that you just mentioned. [quote=Dyto]You are not good because you can "insec", you're bad because you need to exploit that champion. Also, I want you to know that I main several champions on this list, because im bad.[/quote] 1. You're not exploiting anything with any champion. Every champion has their own features, it's how you as a player use those features to improve and become a better player. 2. If you main several of these champions, and you end this thread with saying that you are also bad, then what is the point of your entire argument and this entire thread exactly? Just to rant or what?[/quote] To be honest, I made this thread because even though I use many of these champions, Im tired of HAVING to use them to be relevant, the other champions not listed just always feel VASTLY inferior ingame so you have to use these champions. I would like to be able to use more champions, rather than pigeonholed into the same third of champions that are just catered to.[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo]You don't have to use them to be relevant, infact you can use any champion and be equally as relevant. I can probably name around 101 champions that are equally as strong as the 47 you just listed.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo]You don't have to use them to be relevant, infact you can use any champion and be equally as relevant. I can probably name around 101 champions that are equally as strong as the 47 you just listed.[/quote] Honestly every champion CAN be relevant, but it takes A LOT more work and MUCH faster farming to do it on other champions, the 47 listed, have kits which make it EASY for them, they're like playing with a handicapp, you know ... you let your 4 yr old use training wheels on the bike because it makes riding easier, same thing with absurdly stronger champions.[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Honestly every champion CAN be relevant, but it takes A LOT more work and MUCH faster farming to do it on other champions, the 47 listed, have kits which make it EASY for them, they're like playing with a handicapp, you know ... you let your 4 yr old use training wheels on the bike because it makes riding easier, same thing with absurdly stronger champions.[/quote] You don't mention [[nasus]] in your list, yet he can pretty much destroy all of the champions you just listed if he can get out of the early game which is the only stage where he is weak. Every champion has their own stage of the game where they are strong, some of the ones you just so happened to mention has kits that gives them a strong early face, but these can easily be destroyed by champions that has stronger late game stages. While some of these also has decently strong late game faces as well, the point still stands. If you know a champion has a great early game damage, waveclearing etc. etc. then it's your job to either deny them from farming or getting the powerspikes that they want like for example freezing OR making sure that you don't die to them in the early stages when they are the strongest. If you die early when they are strong and you aren't, you are essentially giving them the advantage that they want, which will result in you not being able to do anything.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto][quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Honestly every champion CAN be relevant, but it takes A LOT more work and MUCH faster farming to do it on other champions, the 47 listed, have kits which make it EASY for them, they're like playing with a handicapp, you know ... you let your 4 yr old use training wheels on the bike because it makes riding easier, same thing with absurdly stronger champions.[/quote] You don't mention [[nasus]] in your list, yet he can pretty much destroy all of the champions you just listed if he can get out of the early game which is the only stage where he is weak. Every champion has their own stage of the game where they are strong, some of the ones you just so happened to mention has kits that gives them a strong early face, but these can easily be destroyed by champions that has stronger late game stages. While some of these also has decently strong late game faces as well, the point still stands. If you know a champion has a great early game damage, waveclearing etc. etc. then it's your job to either deny them from farming or getting the powerspikes that they want like for example freezing OR making sure that you don't die to them in the early stages when they are the strongest. If you die early when they are strong and you aren't, you are essentially giving them the advantage that they want, which will result in you not being able to do anything.[/quote] I INTENTIONALLY leave nasus out...because unlike the old cliche for SOME of these champions "Just cc them", that ACTUALLY works on nasus, he has no mobility and no way to get in close besides summoners and his one SINGLE TARGET slow. Nasus Q damage scales infinitely yes and so it seems like it also fits into this same "you're bad if..." scenario, but the rest of his kit does not combo well enough to overcome zero mobility, zero hard cc or some sort of different ability. He doesnt turn into the same type of monster, not atleast as often as the champions mentioned. Again, nasus is actually fairly well balanced ... he has no mobility but HIGH damage and to compensate the damage his only CC is soft and he doesnt get a burst ult either.[/quote]

[quote=Dyto]Mobility is THE strongest skill type in the game.... and these champions ( most ) pay NO price for that ability[/quote]

[quote=Fruxo][quote=Dyto]Mobility is THE strongest skill type in the game.... and these champions ( most ) pay NO price for that ability[/quote] [list] [*] [[aatrox]], doesn't even have that much mobility. His [[umbral dash]] with 1 use doesn't even count. [*] [[akali]], relies on her [[shuriken flip]] for mobility and can be dodged & used as a trap in multiple ways. Her [[twilight shroud]] gives a decaying movement speed which only lasts for 2 seconds and her [[perfect execution]] has to be used on a champion target so that one doesn't count either. [*] [[azir]], the movement abilities he has is a part of his character, useless and unplayable without it. [*] [[camille]], only mobility spell is [[hookshot / wall dive]] which can both be dodged, denied and blocked. [*] [[darius]], unless you force yourself to run [[ghost]], effectively removing his other useful spells like [[ignite]], he has no mobility. [*] [[Diana]], also doesn't have any mobility if her [[lunar rush]] is on cooldown, and if she decides to go in with said ability, she cannot get out and can get targeted in order to die, effectively compensating the only mobility she has. [*] [[draven]], part of his character, also a huge mana consumtion if you use it too often. [*] [[evelynn]], also does not have any movement abilities and her mobility is the exact same as most others. [*] [[fiora]], sure, [[lunge]] gives her great mobility, but as a compensation if you don't hit a target/vital, it goes on a massive cooldown and it still costs a ton of mana to use. [*] [[gnar]], only form of mobility is [[hop / crunch]], doesn't even count. [*] [[hecarim]], also part of his character. Without mobility, he's completely useless. [*] [[illaoi]], same as darius, doesn't have any mobility but the normal mobility that every champion has. [*] [[irelia]], her [[bladesurge]] is the only form of mobility she has. Yes it gives her a lot of room to make plays and yes it is a really good ability. However, it has major weaknesses to compensate for that mobility, one clear example is that if your target doesn't die, the ability won't reset, if you don't use it on a passive proc, it won't reset. [*] [[Jarvan IV]], part of his character. [*] [[jax]], only has [[leap strike]] which is barely any mobility. [*] [[kassadin]], only has his [[riftwalk]], which is a part of his character, his compensation for that is that the more he use it, the cost of the ability will increase massively. [*] [[katarina]], part of her character, can be dodged and countered in multiple ways. [*] [[kayn]], part of his character, useless otherwise. [*] [[kha'zix]], not a bug without his mobility. [*] [[kled]], doesn't count. [*] [[lee sin]], this is the most obvious one ever. [*] [[master yi]], only has his ultimate, can be countered pretty easily. [*] [[mordekaiser]], has no mobility ? [/list] I don't even have to continue with your list because all of the others that you mentioned are also completely obvious. They have their mobility for a reason, most of which are compensated with other things. If you remove said mobility, they become useless, completely unplayable.[/quote]

[quote=Silverman43]I agree with [mention=Fruxo] here. What are you even trying to prove here? All your points contradict each other. I play champs that are both on your list and not on your list. If I can carry hard with champions like [[Maokai]] and [[Pantheon]], but I also like to play [[hecarim]] and [[shyvana]], am I still a bad player? Your skill in league is around 95% about macro and game knowledge. It's a tactical game after all. If you do well with a hard champion you'll need good insight as well. Otherwise you will still lose many games. And you state the champs you listed are harder to play? [[xin zhao]], [[warwick]], [[darius]], [[shyvana]], [[jarvan IV]], [[master yi]], [[jax]], [[diana]]... are all quite simple. Even if you only count the champions on your list that are actually hard to play, your points aren't logical. Of course mastering a hard champion will be rewarding, but so is mastering literally any other champion. Yesterday me and my team got destroyed by a [[sion]] main. A quite easy champion that isn't included on your list. At the same time I have won against many [[Lee sin]] mains playing my simple anti-mobility [[poppy]]. Playing a harder champion can in fact be even more unforgiving. Let's take [[irelia]] for example. Without being able to hit [[flawless duet]] consistently, you can't do much and you'll be vulnerable to ganks. You can have succes with about any champion in the game until in maybe Masters + elo.[/quote]