MungoGeri wrote:
Hm. Let's see... lots of AD, 100% increased attack speed, 85% crit plus IE's crit damage passive, armor penetration, life steal, 10% movement speed boost and bonus mana to boot. Please enlighten me on how the build is "******ed" and please give your own suggested build so I can run some numbers on it.
Well, you don't have boots, no defensive items, didn't specify champion plus double phantom dancer is far from optimal.
Change is gooooood
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Something like that might work. I just did some tests using
Lulu and was disappointed to find out that Muramana does not proc on Pix, Faerie Companion and that the proc also does not critical strike. Still, with the full build ( Essence Reaver+ Muramana+ Infinity Edge+ Phantom Dancer+ Phantom Dancer+ Last Whisper), the Muramana proc alone was 1/7th (14%) of the damage I dealt on basic attacks. Plus, Muramana procs on single target spells, so it proc'd on Help, Pix!, but it did not proc on Whimsy. I guess it has to be a single target *damage* spell to get it to proc. Essence Reaver was pretty good about countering the mana lost spamming the Muramana proc. It wasn't perfect, but it definitely helped. Having the blue buff on top of the Essence Reaver mana steal was pretty much perfect, though.I think your idea of using Yorick is a good one. It'd be interesting to see if the ghosts proc
Muramana. Any character who can use AD and who has a lot of single target attacks could probably use this kind of a build well.
MungoGeri wrote:
Hm. Let's see... lots of AD, 100% increased attack speed, 85% crit plus IE's crit damage passive, armor penetration, life steal, 10% movement speed boost and bonus mana to boot. Please enlighten me on how the build is "******ed" and please give your own suggested build so I can run some numbers on it.
Standard build: BT, IE, PD, LW, Zeker greaves
6th item can be a defensive item or blade of the ruined king. You can replace boots with zephyr when full built.
Meiyjhe wrote:
Well, you don't have boots, no defensive items, didn't specify champion plus double phantom dancer is far from optimal.
OK... the double
Phantom Dancers gives 10% run speed which is about the same as second tier boots. Defensive items depends on the game situation and champion. The champion choice is generic. Right now, I'm theory crafting out loud to see whether a generic build based on essense reaver+ Muramana could be effective. If you have a better idea of how to make it work, please list your build and I'll run some numbers. Finally, how is 60% crit, 100% attack speed, and 10% run speed "far from optimal"?
First of all, BT or Blade >>>> essence reaver in terms of damage / lifesteal / utility.
Muramana isn't cost efficient either. You need 3k mana (which you won't get) until it beats a BT / IE in straight AD. Besides that Tear of the Goddess is a terrible lane item and delays your power spike.
Also, the one phantom dancer you're replacing boots with gives approximately 15-20 movement speed with. Tier 2 boots give 45 movement speed if I'm not mistaken + the movement speed you can get from upgrades. It's also a lot cheaper.
It's really pathetic that you're still bothering to defend this build ...
Muramana isn't cost efficient either. You need 3k mana (which you won't get) until it beats a BT / IE in straight AD. Besides that Tear of the Goddess is a terrible lane item and delays your power spike.Also, the one phantom dancer you're replacing boots with gives approximately 15-20 movement speed with. Tier 2 boots give 45 movement speed if I'm not mistaken + the movement speed you can get from upgrades. It's also a lot cheaper.
It's really pathetic that you're still bothering to defend this build ...
I like how you can build AP supports now : Ardent Censer plus Twin Shadows are my two first items after Sightstone. You're so damn fast :D
I've thought about using Ardent Censer on Thresh since you can give the AS buff to potentially your whole team but he doesn't really benefit from the AP and the components used to build the item.
They said that they created this item to "bring back" Alistar, Sona, Janna, Soraka, etc... but I also see Nami, Lulu, Karma and Morgana making very good use of this item. Why you you play the "forgotten" ones if the already "proeminent" ones can perfectly use it ?
Mikael's is damn expensive now...
Even though Lb can't silence anymore, her burst remains the same. If she gets fed, no need to silence a target you're going to blow up in mere seconds.
I like the new Nidalee. I've seen her everywhere : top, mid and jungle.
Thresh Doran's Blade start was nerfed :(
Twin Shadows are my two first items after Sightstone. You're so damn fast :DI've thought about using Ardent Censer on
Thresh since you can give the AS buff to potentially your whole team but he doesn't really benefit from the AP and the components used to build the item.They said that they created this item to "bring back"
Alistar, Sona, Janna, Soraka, etc... but I also see Nami, Lulu, Karma and Morgana making very good use of this item. Why you you play the "forgotten" ones if the already "proeminent" ones can perfectly use it ?Mikael's is damn expensive now...
Even though Lb can't silence anymore, her burst remains the same. If she gets fed, no need to silence a target you're going to blow up in mere seconds.
I like the new
Nidalee. I've seen her everywhere : top, mid and jungle. Thresh Doran's Blade start was nerfed :( Galio was buffed
Vynertje wrote:
Standard build: BT, IE, PD, LW, Zeker greaves
6th item can be a defensive item or blade of the ruined king. You can replace boots with zephyr when full built.
The point of the discussion was to see if an
Essence Reaver could be useful when paired with Muramana, so the build should have been based around that. But fine, let's run some numbers. I will assume the attacker with a Muramana has 2000 mana, and I will assume that the defender of an attack by a Blade of the Ruined King has on average 1500 health during the fight. The numbers for a generic character (in this case, a level 18 Lulu) just basic attacking and not using any abilities (including not counting Pix, Faerie Companion) are:Traditional Build
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 3479 |
| 200 | 2538 | |
| 300 | 1997 |
Essence Reaver / Muramana Build
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 3450 |
| 200 | 2516 | |
| 300 | 1981 |
Conclusion
The damage outputs are nearly identical. However, the traditional build has the benefit of more life steal (25% versus 10%) and better run speed (15% versus 10%), so for a generic character, the traditional build is probably better.
However, one could also imagine a scenario where a hybrid style character has abilities that proc the
Muramana more often than most characters. Perhaps Yorick, for example. In that case, an Essence Reaver / Muramana build might be better. We'd have to explore each case individually. The bottom line, though, is that the similar damage between the two builds shows that it's possible that Riot was specifically thinking of this kind of pairing with Muramana when they created the Essence Reaver. I hardly think that my initial suggestion deserved the moniker "******ed."A Different Build
By the way, here's another build possibility to think about:
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 4278 |
| 200 | 3217 | |
| 300 | 2578 |
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You lose so many stats compared to the traditional build, lol.
You also have to pay more for your build (nearly 1K more gold) and you didn't do the comparison using defensive items. In addition, you still neglect the garbage laning phase you'll get by stacking an early Tear of the Goddess.
The Randuin's Omen nerf really ticks me off. AS buffs plus Randuin's nerf? Riot really hates tanks, wtf.
You also have to pay more for your build (nearly 1K more gold) and you didn't do the comparison using defensive items. In addition, you still neglect the garbage laning phase you'll get by stacking an early
Tear of the Goddess.The
Randuin's Omen nerf really ticks me off. AS buffs plus Randuin's nerf? Riot really hates tanks, wtf.
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That build is so ******ed I can't even understand how you got gold.
Hm. Let's see... lots of AD, 100% increased attack speed, 85% crit plus IE's crit damage passive, armor penetration, life steal, 10% movement speed boost and bonus mana to boot. Please enlighten me on how the build is "******ed" and please give your own suggested build so I can run some numbers on it.