1) As an ADC you want as much damage from auto's as possible. Anything else is luxury. It gives only 50 ad and takes up a full item slot which is a 100% waste.
2) Auto attacks crit which means the damage differential is very slight. And then to realize it is %CURRENT mana, the total damage will be about equal. And this is not to mention that with decent mana management, you shouldn't need all the mana at all. The item is NOT effective at all if you don't need a 1k mana pool and especially not as you need to stack it.
3) I am a support main and I'll tell you, I've seen enough people build tear of the goddess first but if you are only halfway decent you'll punish the **** out of it as mana =/= combat stat. Two doran's + longsword beats doran's + tear all day. If they don't, it's their mistake.
4) Now you're comparing completely asymmetrical things. You're justifying not buying boots (a 900g purchase) with two 2.8k purchases which makes no sense at all. The only item you should ever use to replace boots with is a zephyr as it gives more movement speed, tenacity, cdr, ad and AS.
2) Auto attacks crit which means the damage differential is very slight. And then to realize it is %CURRENT mana, the total damage will be about equal. And this is not to mention that with decent mana management, you shouldn't need all the mana at all. The item is NOT effective at all if you don't need a 1k mana pool and especially not as you need to stack it.
3) I am a support main and I'll tell you, I've seen enough people build tear of the goddess first but if you are only halfway decent you'll punish the **** out of it as mana =/= combat stat. Two doran's + longsword beats doran's + tear all day. If they don't, it's their mistake.
4) Now you're comparing completely asymmetrical things. You're justifying not buying boots (a 900g purchase) with two 2.8k purchases which makes no sense at all. The only item you should ever use to replace boots with is a zephyr as it gives more movement speed, tenacity, cdr, ad and AS.
sirell wrote:
you didn't do the comparison using defensive items
Fine, you want your
Guardian Angel and your Berserker's Greaves, I'll give them to you.Traditional Build
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 1946 |
| 200 | 1420 | |
| 300 | 1117 |
Essence Reaver / Muramana / Last Whisper Build
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 1775 |
| 200 | 1295 | |
| 300 | 1019 |
Essence Reaver / Muramana / Inifinity Edge Build
| Items | Enemy Armor | Damage over 4 seconds |
|
| 100 | 1900 |
| 200 | 1280 | |
| 300 | 964 |
Conclusion
Just looking purely at basic attacks, the traditional build does a little more damage, has more life steal (15% versus 10%) and a little more speed. The
Muramana build has 10% CDR and basically infinite mana.However, we still have to keep in mind that the
Muramana will proc for 120 damage (mitigated by armor) on any single target damage ability. So, if you are playing a character whose abilities will proc a Muramana several times over 4 seconds, then the damage with the Muramana build will be higher. Also, the 10% cooldown reduction will help you spam those abilities more often. A Yorick type character would be a good place to start.Quoted:
In addition, you still neglect the garbage laning phase you'll get by stacking an early Tear of the Goddess.
Tear of the Goddess.No, as I mentioned before, there are some characters who would benefit by being able to harass their lane opponents with spammed abilities. It doesn't take long for a
Tear of the Goddess to become effectively infinite mana.
" there are some characters who would benefit by being able to harass their lane opponents with spammed abilities."
There are no ADC's that benefit more from a tear than a second dorans item and a longsword.
Also, regarding what sirell said, a defensive item is not mandatory. BORK can fill that role with its active and extra lifesteal. PD however cannot because it just doesn't give any defensive utility except 15 movement speed which isn't worth much.
Finally, considering that the standard final build does MORE damage in pretty much every stage of the game and doesn't have any weaknesses like requiring tear to stack or a tear early purchase which both weaken all of your power points we can conclude that the standard build definitely is better. You don't even consider the extra AD resulting in more spell damage.
There are no ADC's that benefit more from a tear than a second dorans item and a longsword.
Also, regarding what sirell said, a defensive item is not mandatory. BORK can fill that role with its active and extra lifesteal. PD however cannot because it just doesn't give any defensive utility except 15 movement speed which isn't worth much.
Finally, considering that the standard final build does MORE damage in pretty much every stage of the game and doesn't have any weaknesses like requiring tear to stack or a tear early purchase which both weaken all of your power points we can conclude that the standard build definitely is better. You don't even consider the extra AD resulting in more spell damage.
Vynertje wrote:
1) As an ADC you want as much damage from auto's as possible. Anything else is luxury. It gives only 50 ad and takes up a full item slot which is a 100% waste...
3) I am a support main and I'll tell you, I've seen enough people build tear of the goddess first but if you are only halfway decent you'll punish the **** out of it as mana =/= combat stat. Two doran's + longsword beats doran's + tear all day. If they don't, it's their mistake.
That's nice. I main support and jungle. Who said that we were only talking about bottom stand still and auto ADC's? How about a
Yorick who spams ghouls on hapless Nasuses and Garens? How about a mid Lulu who wants to play an ADC mid but needs the early mana to help harass her lane opponent? Heck, I'm sure that there are plenty of bottom lane ADC's who could use the early mana, too.You're jumping on my case as if I had made a post saying, "This is teh UBER BUILD all champions MUST use or you R NOOB." Instead, I'm trying to explore the possibilities. Clearly, someone at Riot thought that the
Essence Reaver would be a useful item and thought the stats and costs were reasonable. I'm now trying to get in that person's head to figure out what they were thinking. There must be some niche champion item combination where an Essence Reaver makes an important difference. So far, I'm leaning toward some combination with the Muramana with a champion who can spam a lot of single target abilities. It may not be an ADC at all. It might be a bruiser style character. How about instead of jumping on my case, you think about the situation and make your own suggestions?
MungoGeri wrote:
However, we still have to keep in mind that the
Muramana will proc for 120 damage (mitigated by armor) on any single target damage ability. So, if you are playing a character whose abilities will proc a Muramana several times over 4 seconds, then the damage with the Muramana build will be higher. Also, the 10% cooldown reduction will help you spam those abilities more often. A Yorick type character would be a good place to start.2 things of note.
1) You have no guarantee that
Muramana will deal 120 damage, since you are not likely to have maximum mana every time you use it also, other than Urgot, Ezreal is the only ADC with higher than 1000 mana at level 18, meaning all ADCs won't be dealing 120 damage anyway, unless you also build a Trinity Force. In addition, Muramana will be dealing even less damage than that prior to level 18.2) We are talking of your suggested ADC builds, so
Yorick-type champions are not even remotely relevant.If you don't want 'your case to be jumped on', then why suggest anything in the first place? Did you expect us to just nod and carry on? Want us to bark and play fetch as well? You sound like you've never had your ideas criticised before. Whyever do you assume we cannot 'jump on your case'?
If reaver gets two champions back into the meta, Riot have done their job. Even if it's just Urgot and Yorick for example.
And this sort of theory crafting requires both sides to play test it, and then wait three weeks until it gets buffed and becomes OP.
And this sort of theory crafting requires both sides to play test it, and then wait three weeks until it gets buffed and becomes OP.
Basically MOBAFire.
What about something like a Nasus where you can pair the Muramana with the added mana from an Iceborn Gauntlet to get some extra damage from the proc? The Essence Reaver could keep the mana bar topped off while farming and provide another 10% CDR on Nasus's abilities. Or, maybe not Nasus specifically but someone like him.
Nasus where you can pair the Muramana with the added mana from an Iceborn Gauntlet to get some extra damage from the proc? The Essence Reaver could keep the mana bar topped off while farming and provide another 10% CDR on Nasus's abilities. Or, maybe not Nasus specifically but someone like him.
sirell wrote:
If you don't want 'your case to be jumped on', then why suggest anything in the first place? Did you expect us to just nod and carry on? Want us to bark and play fetch as well? You sound like you've never had your ideas criticised before. Whyever do you assume we cannot 'jump on your case'?
Here are some examples of constructive criticism:
- I don't think an Essence Reaver/ Muramana build will work for bottom lane ADC's because of these reasons...
- Nice thinking, but I'm afraid the Muramana proc doesn't critical strike, so all of that critical strike% goes to waste.
- Have you thought about using an X item instead of a Y item?
- Your builds are too "late game." Can you run the numbers with a pair of boots and a Guardian Angel?
- I see where you're going, but the extra life steal on the more traditional build is way too important to me. Also, the ADC's I play need more speed. Try a Zephyr or a Trinity Force instead of one of your Phantom Dancers.
- Maybe ADC's aren't the way to go. Maybe try a bruiser build. Yorick might be a good place to start.
Some examples of criticism that isn't helpful;
- "That build is so ******ed I can't even understand how you got gold."
- "It's really pathetic that you're still bothering to defend this build ..."
- "You lose so many stats compared to the traditional build, lol." (No specificity about what's missing that's important to the commenter)
- And just generally commenting without thinking or trying to be constructive. If you've already concluded that Essence Reaver is junk in all cases simply because it doesn't help in your specific case, then clearly you're not helping.
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First of all, BT or Blade >>>> essence reaver in terms of damage / lifesteal / utility.
But it kicks their butts when it comes to giving you mana steal and cooldown reduction. You're making the mistake of comparing items one for one rather than seeing how items and skills can multiply off one another.
You're not taking into account the extra damage proc from
Regarding a
Yes, but I have two
I would really appreciate it if you would stop with the gratuitous insults. I've been more than patient with you up to this point. My initial comments involved throwing out a new build possibility that people might think about and try out. For people who like to use a