AD Melee's with Gap Closer Mid

[quote=b3astliness][quote=JEFFY40HANDS] Fizz dropped off because he's too easily beaten mid by ranged APs and DPS casters like Cass or Ryze. Fizz is a strong counter to Vlad though because of the grievous wounds+ %health DoT he can apply. As well....Sending a melee AD mid is just asking for them to get zoned/harassed/killed. If someone wants to go Talon mid, he can "do well" but overall I find him to be all hype as a "mid counter" Cass/Ryze/Gragas all easily shut him down. Overall the concept is there but Talon's kit doesn't allow for him to really trade at all. [/quote] Because they are ranged dps is why they get shut down, basically they do a small amount of damage in the short time u gap close and do sever damage to them. IF it was nuke however it would be farm more challenging. Im not saying mid lane gap closer for every mid, but all those caster dps like cass, fizz, swain, malz , and much more[/quote]

[quote=The Overmyynd][quote=Searz] You didn't understand my statement. Read it again. [/quote] Nope.... Still not seeing it :([/quote]

[quote=Embracing]It's all dependent on the champion matchup. Talon is good mid against slow squishy APS. Panth is too Riven, Tryn, Irelia, Jarvan, Wukong have all been placed mid before to counter specific champions. It's not "OH NEW META MELEE AD'S COUNTER RANGED AP" Certain champs counter other champs.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy][[kassadin]] is a meele mid laner with gap closer aswell. And he counters most mages.[/quote]

[quote=b3astliness][quote=NicknameMy] [[kassadin]] is a meele mid laner with gap closer aswell. And he counters most mages. [/quote] The problem is he is usually not played as an AD mid, just a melee mid.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS][quote=b3astliness] [quote=JEFFY40HANDS] Fizz dropped off because he's too easily beaten mid by ranged APs and DPS casters like Cass or Ryze. Fizz is a strong counter to Vlad though because of the grievous wounds+ %health DoT he can apply. As well....Sending a melee AD mid is just asking for them to get zoned/harassed/killed. If someone wants to go Talon mid, he can "do well" but overall I find him to be all hype as a "mid counter" Cass/Ryze/Gragas all easily shut him down. Overall the concept is there but Talon's kit doesn't allow for him to really trade at all. [/quote] Because they are ranged dps is why they get shut down, basically they do a small amount of damage in the short time u gap close and do sever damage to them. IF it was nuke however it would be farm more challenging. Im not saying mid lane gap closer for every mid, but all those caster dps like cass, fizz, swain, malz , and much more [/quote] LoL no not "all" of them Gragas is a melee caster. but he has an AoE attack speed debuff, and a spell that grants him additional damage reduction, he is more of a burst mage. I'm starting to think YOU really DON'T know what you're talking about.[/quote]

[quote=albableat][[lee sin]] mid is really good (Mowen, if you read this, don't speak up plx xDDDD). Especially vs. really squishy AP's like [[karthus]]. Just for the retarded burst that AD Lee has. I've seen a [[Fiora]] in mid recently :O She did pretty good, but her team was really terrible, so I couldn't really judge the strength of mid Fiora...[/quote]

[quote=Arcana3]Well [b]ANY[/b] person can go mid if they have a close gapper, and do fine. For example, [[akali]] at 6, just wreaks people. If you play passively, and just harass with Q, it works out fine. Or [[Kassidan]] if you just harass with Q, and just play passively at 6 you just wreak people. But really, those champions are AP, not AD. The only Mid i think is viable that is AD is [[Talon]]. I haven't seen pantheon mid so I can't say.[/quote]

[quote=b3astliness][quote=JEFFY40HANDS] [quote=b3astliness] [quote=JEFFY40HANDS] Fizz dropped off because he's too easily beaten mid by ranged APs and DPS casters like Cass or Ryze. Fizz is a strong counter to Vlad though because of the grievous wounds+ %health DoT he can apply. As well....Sending a melee AD mid is just asking for them to get zoned/harassed/killed. If someone wants to go Talon mid, he can "do well" but overall I find him to be all hype as a "mid counter" Cass/Ryze/Gragas all easily shut him down. Overall the concept is there but Talon's kit doesn't allow for him to really trade at all. [/quote] Because they are ranged dps is why they get shut down, basically they do a small amount of damage in the short time u gap close and do sever damage to them. IF it was nuke however it would be farm more challenging. Im not saying mid lane gap closer for every mid, but all those caster dps like cass, fizz, swain, malz , and much more [/quote] LoL no not "all" of them Gragas is a melee caster. but he has an AoE attack speed debuff, and a spell that grants him additional damage reduction, he is more of a burst mage. I'm starting to think YOU really DON'T know what you're talking about. [/quote] You said it yourself hes a burst mage not a caster dps. AS for the trading concern he doesn't have an aoe attack speed debuff just a damage reduction spell so he can trade perfectly fine and come out on top in most situations.[/quote]

[quote=CasterMaster][quote=b3astliness] Hey guys, recently I had a troll idea to go on [[Xin Zhao]] and go mid. I expected to be rolf stomped by the enemy AP mid. Funny thing is it went quite the opposite way with me face rolling their [[Fizz]]. I've also had similar experiences against [[Malzahar]], [[Kennen]](was pretty hard lane, but I am pretty sure it was the player), [[Cassiopeia]], [[Veigar]] and [[Morgana]](Also a hard lane barely won this one, I think its the snare). From my experiences anyone with hard cc and decent sustain makes your lane hard when midding as Xin. Basically how viable is a gap closing melee mid with cc ( ex. [[Irelia]], [[Xin Zhao]]) against the average AP mid. [/quote] Either extremely deadly or weak. From the towers to the minions, if you were to leap in, you'd probably deal some major damage and then get hit by the tower or deal minor damage and not get hit. They don't have consistent sustain (unlike [[xin zhao]]) and can be quite terrifying. [b]Major Problem:[/b] Gets ganked relatively easy and can be zoned if counter-picked. You may say well [[fizz]] is melee, why isn't he going to be ganked easily? He's got [[playful / trickster]], [[kassadin]] has [[riftwalk]] at level 6. Before that, anyone can kill him. Now you've understood where the AD Melee's would go. If they're carries like [[master yi]] or [[tryndamere]], they shouldn't be there (unless it's an AP [[master yi]] which is totally fine since their ultimate damage output is [[alpha strike]]). Now, we've got to put in account a few things to determine how well they'll do in the lane: [b]Their bursting abilities, their sustain, and their farming abilities.[/b] We now look back at [[xin zhao]]. He's got great bursts, a pretty good sustain ([[tireless warrior]], most AP mid champions won't have decent sustain) and farming abilities are good. Now let's say you're up against [[brand]]. If you dash towards him you'll probably end up dealing 150~250 points of attack damage before you get hit by [[conflagration]] and [[sear]] which will end up taking up a good 250 damage. This allows [[pillar of flame]] to hit as well, meaning you're going to take more damage. AD melee's in mid will definitely have a good zoning potential if their gap closing skill is on a low cool-down. Why do you think that [[pantheon]] and [[talon]] have gotten popular mid? They do extremely well against casters. [[pantheon]] has one of the best poking harass skills that is targeted in the game; his ability to zone is amazingly powerful and can block towers if he ends up getting too close. [[talon]] is an anti-mage, and can quite easily bring down someone from 75% health to absolutely nothing. Some players will put the top champion in mid. Now we can regard that we can [b]ALSO[/b] put the mid champion top. This has been around for a while and the most common champions people do this is with [[vladimir]], [[fizz]], [[kennen]], etc. You can switch their lanes. The top champion will most likely be an AD Melee (bruiser, offtank, etc) and the mid is pretty much going to be the AP carry. These lanes can switch back and forth to maintain advantage in champions and countering roles. Another example? Let's take a look at [[irelia]] then. If you're one of those people who max [[bladesurge]] first (which I wouldn't know why), you'll probably have a good time fighting in the mid lane. [[ionian fervor]] is a good way to stop those CC, meaning ganks won't be as extremely effective but will still do. [[hiten style]] is a good form of sustain and her burst is pretty formidable. Now, we can say [[irelia]] will do fine in the mid lane. Nonetheless, now we have to look at the enemy team to see how well their AP will do against you. I'd say [[brand]] is probably one of [b]THE WORST[/b] possible champions to lane up against if you're melee and you're not [[fizz]]. [[sear]] was just meant to be thrown onto melee champions, ranged champions have no problem because they can stand behind minions and safely farm. However, if you're [[irelia]] and you're laning up against [[fizz]], you'd get an edge on him because he can't fully commit to fighting you. [[equilibrium strike]] will stop him in his tracks. Which is why you also need to look at not only [b]HOW[/b] well they'd do, but also [b]WHO[/b] you will be fighting against. Will the person give you a hard time? Better not go mid. Will you give them a hard time? Maybe switch up your lanes. Now we'll look at your situation. Troll idea to put [[xin zhao]] mid? I think not. [[xin zhao]] heavily out-damages [[fizz]] and will make him go cry in a corner while you happily sustain your lane and zone him out of town (this works pretty well with [[akali]] as well). [[malzahar]] before level 6 is pretty much useless against you; he's got no form of CC to stop you from attacking him [b]THUS[/b], allowing you to out-damage, out-sustain and zone him. I'm not sure how you beat the [[kennen]] though, I'd assume he's bad and you were aggressive. Again, [b]out-sustain, out-damage, and zone[/b]. [[xin zhao]]'s [[audacious charge]] is on an OK cool-down, but remember that [[battle cry]] (which I think you'd activate immediately beforehand or during the charge) will reduce the cool-downs on your skills greatly. This will inevitably help you fight your enemies. [[cassiopeia]] is kind of a joke, I don't know how you won this one, guessing the sustain and that the player was bad. [[veigar]] is an anti-caster, he shouldn't have been a problem to [b]ANYONE[/b] considering he needs to farm up with [[baleful strike]]s to be useful and therefore constantly using up his mana for this purpose. [[morgana]]'s [[black shield]] would absorb [[audacious charge]] and that's about it, still I'm guessing the player. So the answer to your question? There really isn't one. Some can be fantastic while others can be pretty much useless. It's up to you to decide if you're going top or mid, and see if you can choose someone that handles one or both of these champions well.[/quote]