Why do people think cho is a tank?

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] Why do you even comment on things you know nothing about?[/quote] Riiiiight back at ya <3[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I don't comment on things I've never tried. You do.[/quote]

[quote=Urscythe][quote=Luther3000] [quote=DuffTime] Yearp. My solo lane top Cho Gath gear to start out with is FH and FoN pretty much every single game. [/quote] How would you feel about rushing Catalyst, but not upgrading to RoA until after FH/FoN? Just curious. [/quote] Catalyst should be considered core, no matter what your opinion is. It's health, mana, and sustain. I personally prefer to turn it into an RoA, but some like having a BV. I disagree that you should rush a Frozen Heart. Rod of Ages will perform better early on than FH, and you can easily have both - the only difference is that RoA is best when bought early, while FH can be bought at any time. RoA is just an extremely effective item. HP and MP, plus AP. Yeah, FH will amount to more damage due to CDR early on, but again... there's no reason you can't have both and a Cho build WITH RoA will perform better than a Cho build WITHOUT RoA.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=mastajdog] i agree with the above, and his base stats are high enough to play him as an off-tank with pure tanking items. i appriciate the support of the early fh deal. so what do people in general think of pure/mostly ap cho? i've never tried it, but how would you really counter it? just wondering. [/quote] Well, first off, there's [{Trundle]] - Hard counter tanks with [[Agony]] Second, [[Vayne]] - [[Silver Bolts]] hurt so baaaad. If you're not playing Trundle or Vayne, then you don't counter tanks by killing them. You beat them by killing their teammates so focusing the tank is no longer a bad thing. Tanks don't really need a counter - The game is already set up so you can beat them normally. [quote=Wayne3100] Mostly AP Cho deals disgusting amounts of damage, but is also so squishy. It requires playing him like a squishy mid which is really weird. Tanky AP works pretty well in fact and is quite strong, but I still prefer zoning enemies with full tank Cho. @ Duff Madred's????? Warmog's Armor???? Trinity Force?????? really? :| [/quote] Don't listen to Duff; warmogs isn't good if the enemy is half-decent, and triforce is just bad, no spammable skills to proc sheen, you don't need the slow, to hell with crit chance, and you don't need the movement speed boost. FoN already gives MS, and if you're really not catching up to people, I'd need to hear about a more specific example - Like you're not suppose to be able to catch [[Teemo]] or [[Nidalee]] Madred's falls in the same category as Wit's End for viability - Although the time it takes to build the stupid thing and the fact he gets more then enough armor from other items makes it less viable. Even pure tank Chos typically at least take [[Rod of Ages]] because it works out so well in lane and AP is better for damage-output then attack speed. His AP-ratios aren't bad being able to boost damage on all your skills is better - You know you want to be increasing that damage on [[Feast]][/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Urscythe] Catalyst should be considered core, no matter what your opinion is. It's health, mana, and sustain. I personally prefer to turn it into an RoA, but some like having a BV. I disagree that you should rush a Frozen Heart. Rod of Ages will perform better early on than FH, and you can easily have both - the only difference is that RoA is best when bought early, while FH can be bought at any time. RoA is just an extremely effective item. HP and MP, plus AP. Yeah, FH will amount to more damage due to CDR early on, but again... there's no reason you can't have both and a Cho build WITH RoA will perform better than a Cho build WITHOUT RoA. [/quote] Not even a sentence of this is correct. Catalyst give him more of what he already has- HP and sustain. Resistances give him what he needs to easy roll the face of his lane opponent. And then you're getting real items instead of a gimmicky RoA that Cho doesn't need at all.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Right, "Don't listen to Duff" even though Duff's the best Cho Gath player in the entire thread. The bad Cho's build RoA, the good ones don't. Madred's is the last item you would buy in the games where you would buy it. I don't buy it every game, but towards the 40 minute mark when some enemy champions get high HP, it helps a lot in terms of taking them down. Move speed is great on any champion, to say you don't need movespeed is to prove your own lack of understanding of how this game works. If you have your damage in your auto attacks, the slow is more than welcomed. It also provides more CC and enables you to peel your enemies or catch them and keep them around- So even as a full tank the slow is very functional. The lack of thought put into these rebuttals against my suggestions amazes me. You just disagree for the sake of disagreement, without even trying to understand. You don't even realize why RoA is a poor investment on Cho Gath. You just don't want me to be right. Which is fine, I guess, it just sucks that you might be convincing newer players that RoA is legitimately a good item choice on Cho Gath, because it's really not a good choice at all. Catalyst is fine, if you build it into a BV. RoA is just a terrible item for Cho.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100][quote=DuffTime] Right, "Don't listen to Duff" even though Duff's the best Cho Gath player in the entire thread. [/quote] Duff assumes he is, you can't be sure. [quote=DuffTime] The bad Cho's build RoA, the good ones don't. ..... The lack of thought put into these rebuttals against my suggestions amazes me. You just disagree for the sake of disagreement, without even trying to understand. You don't even realize why RoA is a poor investment on Cho Gath. You just don't want me to be right. Which is fine, I guess, it just sucks that you might be convincing newer players that RoA is legitimately a good item choice on Cho Gath, because it's really not a good choice at all. Catalyst is fine, if you build it into a BV. RoA is just a terrible item for Cho. [/quote] I agree with you on [[Rod of Ages]], I really don't think it's such a great item on him at all. You mention that Catalyst is 'fine' even though it gives him more HP and sustain (which he, as you rightfully mentioned, already has), isn't even that item subpar to get early? I have seen Hotshotgg play with [[Wit's End]] before and I like the idea of improving Cho's damage by focusing on extra damage through auto-attacks (since he has one of the highest base ADs in game and of course has the bonus damage from [[Vorpal Spikes]] on every hit), but Madred's wouldn't be the first item that comes to mind so excuse me for asking you to explain why you would buy that on Cho. [[Warmog's Armor]] feels kinda troll on him. Basically he has a free Warmogs already and then you spend 3000 gold which you could invest in mres and armor into even more health? As for [[Trinity Force]], I don't see how you'll be able to use the proc very often, other than that I guess he makes decent use of all the stats it provides (apart from the critical strike chance maybe). Again, not the first item that I would suggest buying on Cho, even if you want to deal more AD damage instead of increasing your AP. Thats why I questioned your choices, that's all :P I'm not sure whether you meant me when you said that we don't want you to be right, but just to clarify I just want to discuss why you build certain items, if you're right then that's fine with me ;)[/quote]

[quote=PotatisFarfar]Sorry duff, but you are not the best Cho player :3. And you will need one Hp item. So why not RoA? Counter building is important to win lanes against some opponents. But some you can just stomp over without even counter building. Cho'gath is so versatile you can't really say any item is bad on him. Except maybe tiamat...[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Well thought out responses to both gentlemen :) My answers would be that yes, you need one HP item at least. I buy Warmogg's as my HP item, and I'll try to explain why now. To get the most "Bang for your buck" I think the purchase of either a GA, or Force of Nature and Frozen heart. Those are sort of just automatic buy in my book. It depends on how you're planning to build. I was doing this since before I saw HotShotGG do it, to see him do it just shows two people drew the same conclusion. (He doesn't build the GA early, he does the FH and FoN. I think you can do either depending on what you're trying to do.) When Cho hits lvl 16-18 with 6 stacks of feast he was about 2700 HP, give or take. RoA will bring him to about 3350. Warmogg's will bring him to 4000. That's a huge difference. It's simply gigantic when you factor the resistances I buy on Cho. People can argue that 80 AP makes a big difference in terms of damage. So do Wit's end and Madred's with attack speed and on hit- Not only does Cho's E make the most of attack speed, but he's got the highest base AD in game, and attack speed's using that as well. Wit's end and Madred's also have some nice resistances to round out both Cho's natural HP steroid and the huge chunk of HP you can get in Warmogg's. As long as you have about 180 resistances, Warmogg's is certainly "Worth it" due to the way that people purchase items in this game. Forcing the purchase of Madred's is not a waste of your time buying the Warmogg's as well, if you allow a player to go full AD and buy a Last Whisper, instead of forcing them to buy a Madred's, you're doing them a big favor. So the whole, "But Madred's" argument isn't valid. Basically, RoA has some things Cho wants to have, some HP some Mana, some minor damage in AP etc, but other items offer him as much or better damage, while offering him as much or better survivability. For example rushing a Zhonya's would be better cost to effect than an RoA on Cho. You may not -need- resistances to win a lane, but building them will afford you complete disregard to your opponent if that's the case, and that's when you can really start denying farm and even start considering a tower dive if you can see their jungler. If your opponent can't threaten you, then you can simply bully him. No Wayne, I meant Jun. Jun repeatedly disagrees with me without even considering my arguments, and all he cares about is being right. He's even admitted before that he likes to "Win" arguments, which is completely the wrong mentality to have in a forum discussing viability of builds and the like. Anyway TL;DR, Warmogg's + on hit items w/ resistances, and FH/FoN or a TF/GA is more cost effective, in that your damage doesn't suffer (It will be as good or better, but you have to be auto attacking a lot,) and you'll be a good 50% tankier if not more than you'd be able to be with the RoA build. In regards to Trinity force, when you already have Wit's end and lvl 5 E, the 30% AS is great. Slowing procs are great, 12% move speed is great. 30 AD is great, HP is great. He even uses the AP and mana. The occasional proc is just bonus. Cho simply uses Trinity Force better than most champs in the game, and his amazingly high base AD makes the proc huge when it does happen. But it's not as much for the proc as it is for the stats, MS, and the slows, to be honest. Mostly about the MS and Slows. :) In fact, considering that you'll get 30 AP, 250 HP, and 250 mana, I think you even get some of what other players like about RoA in Trinity Force as well xD[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]I like the idea. Your approach seems to be less bursty than building AP to increase your [[Rupture]], [[Feral Scream]] [i]and[/i] [[Feast]] damage, but since you're extremely tanky anyway I think it does increase his already great ability to zone, because you will be less reliant on your high cooldown spells to 'scare' your enemies. Still not sure whether I would buy Warmogs since buying Wits, FH and FoN already requires quite a bit of gold and I still feel like getting Warmogs is a bit of an 'overkill' in terms of the amount of health you'll have, but I will have to test that I guess :) Anyway, +Rep for the comment, detailed and well-explained.[/quote]