A little Shen info

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=omagma] [quote=DuffTime] WMG's is the best survivability item. WMG's is the only item I will always eventually build on every full tank. Also, this guy is right, there's various examples of full tanks who are great junglers. Amumu comes to mind. Shen does not need to be in a lane. He's jungle capable and not being in a lane allows his to use his ult at any second and not jeopardize a lane. He's also lane capable. Understanding of why this or why that is beneficial. [/quote] Fixed [/quote] What are you smoking? Cho'Gath is a fantastic jungler. You probably haven't even tried him. His sustain and versatility are unmatched, his clear time is very strong, his ganks are good with red buff and Rupture, and he scales very well into late game. He's a great solo top as well, but his jungle is right up there with the best of them. I jungle Cho quite frequently if our team is in need of a tank with hard CC.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] WMG's is the best survivability item. WMG's is the only item I will always eventually build on every full tank.[/quote] I had a feeling you were this obsessed with it. Overusing items isn't good. It has it's uses on a lot of champions. But for example, not Amumu and Cho. Funny thing is that Warmog was widely considered a bad tank item for a while (I personally considered it mediocre(often out-done), unless paired with Atma (which I've been doing on tanky champs for years now, HAHA)), but when people found how they could abuse the HP bonus with Atma it's all of a sudden a great item, lol. Buuuut unless paired with Atma I still consider it rather mediocre. It doesn't bring any utility to the table.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Omagma's the champion of the troll kingdom. Nothing new here. --------------------------------------------------------- Warmogg's brings 1370 HP to the table. Are you sure you're not over estimating the utility of items and underestimating the benefit of 1370 HP on a tank? :P I see Warmogg's as sorta... The infinity edge of tanking Searz. Warmogg's was widely considered to be a bad item all across the board- That doesn't matter. GA was also considered to be a bad item for a while. You should know by now I don't care what the popular consensus is, I'm going to form my opinions on what is obviously proven to already work, and what I have found to work in my own personal experience. The thing about Warmogg's on a tank, is it immediately counters burst. That helps Vrs AP's, and so you can get a little armor and you're an instant tank. If you've never tried going Warmogg's directly into GA, it's basically the cheapest most efficient way to be a hard tank when your opponents are getting strong early. Doesn't matter too much what champion you're playing. Minor variences will occur of course. Cho Gath already has HP so build orders shif and etc. The ability to take large amounts of damage is the function of a tank. As long as you can take very high amounts of damage, then you're doing your job. However I will say, part of the reason the meta is shifting towards high damage bursty champions, is because in our current meta game, lots of players are building Tanky DPS or offtanks and using it as their maintank. Warmogg's is the only way to reach "Super tank" status on most champions, and Shen is one of them. The reason I frequently use Warmogg's on Cho is varied. If I'm using an auto attack oriented build with maybe Wit's end, GA, Triforce, finish with a Madred's, then the Warmogg's is what brings me up to that "Tanklike" status. I'd finish with 4k HP, and about 180 or 160 res all. It's a bit more offtanky, but it's sturdy. That wouldn't be very possibly without Warmoggs. I could build all those damage items but never attain the same level of tankiness. Transversely, if I want to be a SUPER tank, maybe my enemies are fed, then there's no way around it. If my enemies just do tooooooo much damage to tank with pure resistances, then Warmogg's is the item to buy. Saying Warmogg's isn't good without Atma's is like saying I.E. isn't good without PD. It's true, they complement each other well. But you should recognize there's other ways to make use of the items. Madred's, while being expensive, makes great use of I.E as well. So sure, Warmogg's isn't automatic buy on every champion or anything like that, but it's the best surivability item in the game, and as such, something I will pretty much always buy as a full tank.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]I wouldn't agree with Duff, but I wouldn't disagree either, simply because I'm not good enough to talk, and also that I don't think different ideas should be thrown away. Warmog's is a great item on bruisers, but I don't know about tanks. Providing a mass amount of health should make it a good item on tanks though.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] I see Warmogg's as sorta... The infinity edge of tanking[/quote] AD carries just need damage. Tanks need utility and durability to help their carries. So no, that comparison is invalid. [quote]Saying Warmogg's isn't good without Atma's is like saying I.E. isn't good without PD. It's true, they complement each other well. But you should recognize there's other ways to make use of the items.[/quote] IE [u]isn't[/u] good unless you build another crit item.. The same goes for Warmog. It's not worth it if you aren't abusing the HP with Atma. [quote]So sure, Warmogg's isn't automatic buy on every champion or anything like that, but it's the best surivability item in the game, and as such, something I will pretty much always buy as a full tank.[/quote] Uuuuuutiiiiliiiiityyyyyyyy~~~~~~~~ ... is something Warmog has NONE.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]I have to agree with Searz here. Warmog's isn't that good without Atma's, and Shen doesn't really need either of those items. Between a sunfire cape and a rylai's you should have plenty of health. My build: [[Doran's Shield]] > [[Mercury's Treads]] or [[Ninja Tabi]] > [[Sunfire Cape]] > [[Abyssal Scepter]] > [[Rylai's Crystal Scepter]] > [[Zhonya's Hourglass]] or [[Thornmail]] > [[Guardian Angel]] or [[Force of Nature]][/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]All Warmogg's needs to be good as a tanking item is resistances. I.E. actually is good even if you don't build any other crit. Doesn't matter how many damage charts you've done on it, the practical application of damage that I.E. brings as a stand alone even with just an item like Madred's behind it is good enough. Crit makes it better, of course. I stand by my opinion that Warmogg's is the Infinity Edge of tanking gear. All tanks need is tankiness, all carries need is damage. Yeah, let's do a couple of theoretical builds, just for the sake of discussion. Nameless showed her build of choice. What would you build, Searz?[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] All Warmogg's needs to be mediocre as a tanking item is resistances.[/quote] Fix'd If you think tankiness is all a tank needs then you're terribly wrong. True tanks are all about helping allies kill the enemy carries. Having only tankiness makes it take longer to kill you, but having bonuses to your utility (CDR, movement speed, actives, slows) helps tremendously more in most cases. [quote]IE actually is good even if you don't build any other crit. Doesn't matter how many damage charts you've done on it, the practical application of damage that I.E. brings as a stand alone even with just an item like Madred's behind it is good enough.[/quote] The cost effectiveness of IE isn't good if that is the only crit item you have. It's all about how much the items do for you for compared to the money you spend.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I don't agree with most of that, and your fix is flat our wrong. What would you build on Shen, Searz?[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]I would build [[frozen heart]] or [[randuin's omen]] instead of [[thornmail]]. [[shen]] needs CDR for [[shadow dash]]. But [[force of nature]] is nearly a must because of the movement speed it provides. My first big item would be [[rylai's crystal scepter]], because of the utility and tankyness it provides. Even on a full tank build a must. Then, build [[chain vest]] and [[negatron cloak]] for resists. Then buy [[glacial shroud]], because you need the cdr. Then [[force of nature]]. Then [[Frozen heart]]. Then you can build a bit more AP. Buy [[abyssal scepter]] and [[zhonya's hourglass]]. Instead of [[zhonya's hourglass]], you could also build [[Guardian angel]].[/quote]