Guide Information Should Be Optimal!

[quote=Vynertje]GMD I completely agree with your statement in the original post. 'Champion guides' are there to teach people how to play/build a champion. I don't think it has to be optimal, but it has to approach it; regardless of the level of the author and their intended public. Even if you're doing something unconventional, there is an optimal way to play that (like how OTG's varus guide is close to optimal for AP varus). As you pointed out, people who don't have a clue how this game works can get influenced really easily and then it is hard to change that 'incorrect' view of the game. If I'd tell someone who is level 1 that 2-1-2 setups are the best and I let him play 50 games with that setup, he will be very likely hold onto that strategy - it is just like how the human brain can get influenced easily. That is why you should always strive to create 100% optimal guides. Bad habits are easily learned, and are hard to drop.[/quote]

[quote=Ninja Trigger][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=astrolia] IIRC, that got suggested at this same time last year (by bitpik or throatslasher?) and got shot down. [/quote] I believe it was shot down because of the way he worded it, which was something like, "We need a high elo forum and a high elo guide section", and people argued that there weren't enough "high elo" people on MobaFire to warrant such an addition.[/quote] Bitpik suggested a diamond 2+ forum which has nothing to do with MOBAFire as this site is about spreading knowledge and creating better players and therefore it was shot down. [/quote] I can see why it got shot down then, separate forums are great and all but really how many of use are diamond 2 or higher here on Mobfire lol, I just dream about one day entering the veteran's forums.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=astrolia] IIRC, that got suggested at this same time last year (by bitpik or throatslasher?) and got shot down. [/quote] I believe it was shot down because of the way he worded it, which was something like, "We need a high elo forum and a high elo guide section", and people argued that there weren't enough "high elo" people on MobaFire to warrant such an addition.[/quote] Bitpik suggested a diamond 2+ forum which has nothing to do with MOBAFire as this site is about spreading knowledge and creating better players and therefore it was shot down. [/quote] I can see why it got shot down then, separate forums are great and all but really how many of use are diamond 2 or higher here on Mobfire lol, I just dream about one day entering the veteran's forums. [/quote] Even if there were 1000 diamond 2+ players active here, it would still contradict the purpose of this community.[/quote]

[quote=Ninja Trigger][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=astrolia] IIRC, that got suggested at this same time last year (by bitpik or throatslasher?) and got shot down. [/quote] I believe it was shot down because of the way he worded it, which was something like, "We need a high elo forum and a high elo guide section", and people argued that there weren't enough "high elo" people on MobaFire to warrant such an addition.[/quote] Bitpik suggested a diamond 2+ forum which has nothing to do with MOBAFire as this site is about spreading knowledge and creating better players and therefore it was shot down. [/quote] I can see why it got shot down then, separate forums are great and all but really how many of use are diamond 2 or higher here on Mobfire lol, I just dream about one day entering the veteran's forums. [/quote] Even if there were 1000 diamond 2+ players active here, it would still contradict the purpose of this community. [/quote] yeah which is why I always liked it here Mobafire has a great community and nice people. Even though I kinda suck at the game :P[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=astrolia] IIRC, that got suggested at this same time last year (by bitpik or throatslasher?) and got shot down. [/quote] I believe it was shot down because of the way he worded it, which was something like, "We need a high elo forum and a high elo guide section", and people argued that there weren't enough "high elo" people on MobaFire to warrant such an addition.[/quote] Bitpik suggested a diamond 2+ forum which has nothing to do with MOBAFire as this site is about spreading knowledge and creating better players and therefore it was shot down. [/quote] I can see why it got shot down then, separate forums are great and all but really how many of use are diamond 2 or higher here on Mobfire lol, I just dream about one day entering the veteran's forums. [/quote] Even if there were 1000 diamond 2+ players active here, it would still contradict the purpose of this community. [/quote] yeah which is why I always liked it here Mobafire has a great community and nice people. Even though I kinda suck at the game :P [/quote] MOBAFire attracts two kinds of people: those who open the door and those who walk through it.[/quote]

[quote=Ninja Trigger][quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=Ninja Trigger] [quote=GrandmasterD] [quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=astrolia] IIRC, that got suggested at this same time last year (by bitpik or throatslasher?) and got shot down. [/quote] I believe it was shot down because of the way he worded it, which was something like, "We need a high elo forum and a high elo guide section", and people argued that there weren't enough "high elo" people on MobaFire to warrant such an addition.[/quote] Bitpik suggested a diamond 2+ forum which has nothing to do with MOBAFire as this site is about spreading knowledge and creating better players and therefore it was shot down. [/quote] I can see why it got shot down then, separate forums are great and all but really how many of use are diamond 2 or higher here on Mobfire lol, I just dream about one day entering the veteran's forums. [/quote] Even if there were 1000 diamond 2+ players active here, it would still contradict the purpose of this community. [/quote] yeah which is why I always liked it here Mobafire has a great community and nice people. Even though I kinda suck at the game :P [/quote] MOBAFire attracts two kinds of people: those who open the door and those who walk through it. [/quote] I may ask you to make that into a quote of the day. But anyway we should really try to get this new system in play for season 4 it will make it a lot easier for scouts and guide writers to appropriately rate/write guides. Also as a attempt to get better at the game I have been learning and buying a lot of new champions and I have been working may way though a lot of guides as result.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]Is this even that big of an issue? In my experience most of the 'optimal' guides seem to find their way to the top anyway. I also don't think it's necessary to have a perfectly crated build, every build is going to have some element of author bias. For example, is [[Sword of the Divine]] [[Zed]] the most optimal build? I think there are some real arguments that it is, but is a guide that doesn't include [[Sword of the Divine]] now suddenly 'not optimal'? You could also look at [[Renekton]], is [[The Brutalizer]] more optimal than [[Tiamat]]/[[Ravenous Hydra]] or vice versa? Maybe I'm not understanding the argument, but it seems to me setting standards for optimal builds will pretty much funnel all guides into what the pro's are doing and really kill any creativity or options that a guide might present. I guess my other question is who decides what an optimal build is? Isn't the idea an optimal build just as much of a personal opinion or preference of the reviewer as that of the author's specific item/mastery/rune/etc choice? Granted, I think there is a wrong and right way to play a champion, but I really question whether this is a necessary change. Rarely do I find a 0/0/30 [[Nasus]] guide or a [[Clarity]][[Diana]] guide making their way to the top of a guide section, in fact I can't think of a time in which it has. I believe that you should take strides to make Mobafire a better site and the quality of it's guides better, but is that what this is going to do? I don't think so, I think it just further complicates the system and funnels all guides into a "meta-optimal" build aka a cookie cutter from the pro scene.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]I think guides should be optimal. I sometimes buy Frozen Mallet on Thresh but I wouldn't exactly put that in a guide lol @Moon, check the #1 Thresh guide..[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex][quote=Khazem] There's nothing wrong with making a guide displaying your own unique way of playing a champion. There should just be a clear distinction between those guides and guides that try to be 'optimal', wether it's mentioned somewhere in the title or perhaps even a seperate category. [/quote] I can completely agree with this. However, moreoften than not, a guide simply states "I play X champion in Z lane/jungle route" and nothing else. Maybe there is a splitpush [[Lee Sin]] guide around that rushes [[Ravenous Hydra]] and that op mastery, [[Destruction]]. Regarding this, a different playstyle may deviate a build from what is actually optimal. Maybe Vapora is a good example for this stuff: even though it is mostly agreed that [[talon]] is best in midlane, from the games in LCS where he is picked, there is no resemblance to Vapora's build, except for the [[Black Cleaver]] and [[Last Whisper]]. Dit it work for the pros? yes. Did Vapora had success with his build, yes and he can justify it. the question now is: what defines optimal and how tolerable is it to not be optimal?[/quote]

[quote=SEALynx][quote=Pheyniex] [quote=Khazem] There's nothing wrong with making a guide displaying your own unique way of playing a champion. There should just be a clear distinction between those guides and guides that try to be 'optimal', wether it's mentioned somewhere in the title or perhaps even a seperate category. [/quote] I can completely agree with this. However, moreoften than not, a guide simply states "I play X champion in Z lane/jungle route" and nothing else. Maybe there is a splitpush [[Lee Sin]] guide around that rushes [[Ravenous Hydra]] and that op mastery, [[Destruction]]. Regarding this, a different playstyle may deviate a build from what is actually optimal. Maybe Vapora is a good example for this stuff: even though it is mostly agreed that [[talon]] is best in midlane, from the games in LCS where he is picked, there is no resemblance to Vapora's build, except for the [[Black Cleaver]] and [[Last Whisper]]. Dit it work for the pros? yes. Did Vapora had success with his build, yes and he can justify it. the question now is: what defines optimal and how tolerable is it to not be optimal? [/quote] All IMO. An optimal build would probably be a build which pros mostly go for with success and you follow it, or maybe a build which is extremely viable. It should also be one with good justification of "why I do x and x". An example of an optimal build would be like a [[Kennen]] guide which has double [[Doran's Blade]]s into a [[Haunting Guise]]-[[Zhonya's Hourglass]] and goes on to justify this accurately. I would say that an tolerable non-optimal build is one that has to have CONSISTENT SUCCESS at a high level (Gold and above?), and while it may not be agreed to be the "best" way of building a champion (maybe in terms of roles or just items/runes/masteries), it is properly justified. An example of a tolerable non-optimal build would be Trick2g's 21 utility on most junglers (which he has proven to perform successfully with in Plat/Diamond level) and [[Boots of Speed]] + 4 [[Health Potion]]s start, and another example would be like (I would mention my guide but I'm not THAT shameless) jungle [[Diana]], while it is generally agreed that she should be played mid, she can also jungle effectively.[/quote]