Singed OP?

[quote=Trojan995][quote=DuffTime] It's not an insult. You're probably not playing threatening enough opponents if you think you don't need full tank items and are playing the tank function. That's why RoA and Rylai's shouldn't both be purchased in 5v5, because you're sacrificing too much real tankiness for gimmicky items that enhance your passive. It allows you to deal more damage while compromising your tanking ability. It doesn't fulfill both roles. It's a soft tank item on Singed and a soft damage item, not a great damage item and not a great tanking item. I said according to me, and you responded with Rod of Ages. Derp. Warmogg's is the best HP item in the game, nothing even comes close. You don't understand tanking if you think it's not a great item. Frozen heart and Warmogg's is far more survivability than a RoA. That's my point. And you're missing it. Nicknamedmy also mentioned it only builds into Banshee's and RoA which are items I'm not building in 90% of my 5v5 matches with Singed. I already responded to this. You chose to ignore it. In summary, the passive is not easy to apply when building full tank items. If you want to sacrifice tankiness for damage, that's fine, it works mid game when you're a solo who's got more farm and levels than the rest of the team, but don't fool yourself into thinking you're going to be tanking hard end game crits from fully farmed ranged AD carries with RoA and Rylai's both taking up half your inventory along with your boots. That only leaves 3 spots for real tank items and it's just not enough. I'm going to just leave it at that, nothing else needs to be explained and I'm ebing forced to repeat points I've already made at this point. [/quote] When I said NicknamedMy made a good point, I meant that [[catalyst the protector]]>[[philosopher's stone]] + [[giant's belt]], largely due to [[strength of spirit]], cost and cost efficiency of items, and what it builds into. RoA doesn't sacrifice that much defense. To prove my point, have you ever played [[maokai]]? A core of [[trinity force]], [[eleisa's miracle]], [[heart of gold]], and [[sorcerer's shoes]] and I can still be the main tank mid-game before I've built any pure defense items (short of HoG). Warmog's is a pretty mediocre item on tanks except in very limited circumstances because it's easy to get lots of health from different sources ([[randuin's omen]] + [[banshee's veil]] to name a few), and the EHP per gold is rather low. Not to mention you have to farm it up a LOT, which takes a lot of farm away from your carries. 3 pure tank items is enough space to make singed uber tanky, especially considering [[rylai's crystal scepter]] and [[rod of ages]] provide incredible amount of health.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Well, it mainly depends onto your situation, what to build: If you are winning your lane and your team works well, you should go for [[rod of ages]]+[[rylai's crystal scepter]] to finish the enemies off and defeat them before you need your tankiness. If you are losing your lane, gold/10 is really good, so you should go with [[philosopher's stone]] and a tanky build. If it is equal, well, your choise^^.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=NicknameMy] Well, it mainly depends onto your situation, what to build: If you are winning your lane and your team works well, you should go for [[rod of ages]]+[[rylai's crystal scepter]] to finish the enemies off and defeat them before you need your tankiness. If you are losing your lane, gold/10 is really good, so you should go with [[philosopher's stone]] and a tanky build. If it is equal, well, your choise^^. [/quote] Yeah, [[philosopher's stone]] isn't bad on singed, provided it's paired with [[catalyst the protector]].[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Philo stone as a stand alone on Singed, is not bad no matter what. Catalyst is better than Giant's belt during laning phase. I didn't argue that. But Giant's belt build into items I want, and Catalyst doesn't, and even without Catalyst, nothing can push me out of lane with Philo/Giants belt regardless. There's no reason to overkill it and buy a catalyst when I'm just going to sell it later. If you rush the Catalyst I wouldn't bother with a philo stone. Just get a faster RoA and you're making more use out of the gold with the earlier stat growth. Let's assume you buy both Rylai's and RoA. That's going to be like 1300 HP roughly. What other items are you going to buy, if not Warmogg's? Banshee's and Randuin's?[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=DuffTime] Philo stone as a stand alone on Singed, is not bad no matter what. Catalyst is better than Giant's belt during laning phase. I didn't argue that. But Giant's belt build into items I want, and Catalyst doesn't, and even without Catalyst, nothing can push me out of lane with Philo/Giants belt regardless. There's no reason to overkill it and buy a catalyst when I'm just going to sell it later. If you rush the Catalyst I wouldn't bother with a philo stone. Just get a faster RoA and you're making more use out of the gold with the earlier stat growth. Let's assume you buy both Rylai's and RoA. That's going to be like 1300 HP roughly. What other items are you going to buy, if not Warmogg's? Banshee's and Randuin's? [/quote] [[force of nature]] and an armor item - [[frozen heart]] might be best, but [[randuin's omen]] is also great. [[thornmail]] might be good, but that's very situational (though I'd consider it on singed more than many other tanks, just because he gets so much health from so many other sources that he can afford very cheap pure armor). Past that, I'd build a situational defense item. [[guardian angel]] might be good, but it's probably more worth it to get an item more team-oriented such as [[abyssal scepter]].[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]So let's say you built Force and Frozen heart with Rylai's and RoA. You get 99 armor and 76 MR. You only have 1300 HP between all 4 items. Your last item had better be some godly ass shit I've never heard of, cause otherwise you're lookin' a lot like peanut butter to me.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=DuffTime] So let's say you built Force and Frozen heart with Rylai's and RoA. You get 99 armor and 76 MR. You only have 1300 HP between all 4 items. Your last item had better be some godly ass shit I've never heard of, cause otherwise you're lookin' a lot like peanut butter to me. [/quote] armor (lvl 18): 81 base 99 frozen heart 12.69 armor seals ----------------- 192.69 armor. That's definitely enough to negate heavy physical damage. With his ultimate on (which should be a large part of the team fight, considering it's 25 seconds long), you have 257.69 armor. MR: 30 base 76 Force of Nature 24.3 scaling MR glyphs ---------------------- 130.3 MR. Okay, that looks pretty wimpy. However, we've got lots of health (~3k), we've got 195.3 MR with our ultimate turned on, and we still have an item slot left. Add in a [[negatron cloak]] and we have 178.3 MR (243.3 MR with ultimate on), which is actually really good for how difficult it is to get MR in items, runes, masteries, and base MR. Most tanks don't get more than 2 MR items anyways, and a [[negatron]] cloak suffices most champions for a large portion of the game (singed gets a leg up on them, since [[force of nature]] is core on him).[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Lets say you do something revolutionary. Something no one really gives a shit about except you...lets say you build something other people will say is really bad. Rylai's > BV > SFC = core. One of the best combo's in the game for Singed. Dyrus agrees. RoA is very nice on Singed, but you probably get all the mana you ever want from BV alone. And if you feelin really mana hungry or want to shoot someone down, just get a Frozen Heart > SFC. Randy's is also very nice for him if you aren't doing so well, a HoG is great. Philo stone is great whether you buy cata or not, it's especially awesome with the buff to Ele's Miracle or w/e the fuck its called. WoTa is nice too as a filler sort of item.[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=Nighthawk] WoTa is nice too as a filler sort of item. [/quote] Healing fart clouds everywhere... @_@[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I'm going to make a "build" thing and then post it to show the difference in potential armor values and such. http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/comparisons-126797 Now, you can see that yes, you'll be pretty tanky with the RoA and Rylai's, but look at what cost. --- With the RoA / Rylai's you'll have 2125 mana. (531 HP, + 3866) 4397 With my version, 1525. (381 HP, + 4231) 4612 --- With the RoA / Rylai's you'll have 249 armor and 172 MR. With my version you'll have 280 armor and 160 MR. --- BIGGEST DIFFERENCES. LOOK AT THE HP REGEN PER 5 SECOND. ALSO FACTOR IN THE UNIQUE ON FORCE. LOOK AT THE MOVE SPEED DIFFERENCES. The rest is fairly comparable, but those are huge massive differences in raw stats that really do have a tremendous effect. --- With the RoA Rylai's version: Utility will include. Slowing skills. Spell shield. Active/passive AS/movespeed debuff. Respawn on death. --- With my version: utility will include: Slowing skills. 20% higher CDR 20% AS debuff. Active/passive AS/MS debuff. 8% move speed. 35% HP regen per second. --- Personally it's an easy choice, because auto attackers are the only threat to Singed end game, and move speed is so useful. If you were to take Banshee's instead of Force on this build your HP would be way way ahead of the other build, but I vastly prefer the utility offered from FoN. Same is true with the Frozen Heart GA. If I wanted to beat the other build's MR I could swap it but I prefer the utility on FH. It in combo with Randuin's passive/active and slowing poison, this is the way you tank effectively against the opponent's AD carries. At any rate, I felt inclined to do the math to show that I know what you can get out of an RoA, and I don't think that double the AP and 500 extra mana is better than what you get with my build at all. It's stronger mid game, and it immediately falls off. Anyway. Cheers.[/quote]